ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

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themuzicman

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But there is more to salvation that just the free will decision. All we need to do is read John 6:44 to see that.

God's drawing (which we see is His teaching in verse 45) enables us to come to Christ. Thus, God is the first actor or first will involved in our salvation, because He must first draw us. It is only then that we are able to hear and learn. Our will then must respond to God's drawing by hearing and learning (and thus believing.)

So, that moves us quite some distance from the Pelagians, although the Pelagian error was that man could be good enough without the atoning sacrifice of Christ.

Michael
 

RobE

New member
themuzicman said:
But there is more to salvation that just the free will decision. All we need to do is read John 6:44 to see that.

God's drawing (which we see is His teaching in verse 45) enables us to come to Christ. Thus, God is the first actor or first will involved in our salvation, because He must first draw us. It is only then that we are able to hear and learn. Our will then must respond to God's drawing by hearing and learning (and thus believing.)

God's drawing which is a cause that effects your will is the First Cause. Doesn't this drawing eliminate our 'free will' according to this:

Premise 1a: Free will is defined as having the ability to do or do otherwise purely by an act of that will.​

Formally defined by you as LFW which allows for absolutely NO cause to act upon it. If He didn't interfere with our free will we would never be able to hear and learn, correct.

So you're saying that God causes our ability to believe. Doesn't this go against the statement "ability to do or do otherwise PURELY by an act of that will"?

This 'assistance' or 'lack of assistance' would make God soley responsible for your 'ability' or 'lack of ability', wouldn't it?

Rob
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
There's a difference between the ability to choose between available options and the ability to choose to do anything. I can't choose to flap my arms and fly to the moon. That's not an option.

In the same way, believing in Christ isn't an option until God draws us, in this case because of ignorance rather than lack of physical ability.

So, yes, God's drawing make us able to choose this option, because we were not able to choose it before. That's not a violation of free will, it's just a fact of free will that you can only choose those options that are available to you.

Michael
 

RobE

New member
More clarification needed.

More clarification needed.

themuzicman said:
So, yes, God's drawing make us able to choose this option, because we were not able to choose it before. That's not a violation of free will, it's just a fact of free will that you can only choose those options that are available to you. Michael

Let's see if I can simplify what you're saying.......

God gave you a will.
God gave you choices.
God gave you the ability to make those choices using your will.

God died for you in reparation for your sins.
God 'drew' you to Him.

God worked in your heart to align your will to His.
God did all the work in other words.

My question: What did you do that God didn't enable you to do with your own 'free' will?

I'll answer this in my next post.

Rob
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
RobE said:
Let's see if I can simplify what you're saying.......

God gave you a will.
God gave you choices.
God gave you the ability to make those choices using your will.

God died for you in reparation for your sins.
God 'drew' you to Him.

this is the only one I disagree with:
God worked in your heart to align your will to His.

that's not how Jesus described God's drawing.

God did all the work in other words.

Other than our choice to believe.

My question: What did you do that God didn't enable you to do with your own 'free' will?

I'll answer this in my next post.

Rob

The fact that God is the creator means that we only do what God has enabled us to do. That's not even in question.

The question is whether we are free to accept or reject God's drawing. (And the other half of the equasion is whether we were free to sin in the first place.)

Michael
 

RobE

New member
RobE said:
Let's see if I can simplify what you're saying.......

God gave you a will.
God gave you choices.
God gave you the ability to make those choices using your will.

God died for you in reparation for your sins.
God 'drew' you to Him.

God worked in your heart to align your will to His.
God did all the work in other words.

My question: What did you do that God didn't enable you to do with your own 'free' will?

I'll answer this in my next post.

Rob

My answer: God didn't enable you to rebel.

As far as your objection goes....Do you believe the Holy Spirit works within you to create a new spiritual man?

Rob
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
RobE said:
Clete.

Premise 1a: Free will is defined as having the ability to do or do otherwise purely by an act of that will.

If there was another active agent then the will wouldn't be free, would it?

Rob


God, angels, and demons are also free moral agents that have significant influence along with other agents. Other wills are not causative or coercive with our wills. We can be influenced, but this does not cause us to do things (otherwise we could blame Adam or the devil and get off the hook).

God's will is not the only signifcant will in the universe (contrary to hyper-sovereignty). This is by His sovereign will and design.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
RobE said:
God's drawing which is a cause that effects your will is the First Cause. Doesn't this drawing eliminate our 'free will' according to this:

Premise 1a: Free will is defined as having the ability to do or do otherwise purely by an act of that will.​

Formally defined by you as LFW which allows for absolutely NO cause to act upon it. If He didn't interfere with our free will we would never be able to hear and learn, correct.

So you're saying that God causes our ability to believe. Doesn't this go against the statement "ability to do or do otherwise PURELY by an act of that will"?

This 'assistance' or 'lack of assistance' would make God soley responsible for your 'ability' or 'lack of ability', wouldn't it?

Rob

You misunderstand Clete's concepts. You should not confuse the synergism of salvation with the will in other moral or mundane choices.

Influence, persuasion, wooing, drawing is NOT causative or coercive. Your theories on causation are flawed. A critical thinker would be able to pin point the weakness of your assumptions or their over aggressive application to things that they do not apply to.

God impartially loves and draws all men who are open to light. Further strong persuasion in the midst of continual rejection of the light one has would only lead to greater condemnation. God can be grieved and quenched. We are warned not to harden our hearts or dull our hearing. God's truth is not the only issue. Man's mind and heart are factors or we do not have relationship. We would be mere robots.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
RobE said:
Let's see if I can simplify what you're saying.......

God gave you a will.
God gave you choices.
God gave you the ability to make those choices using your will.

God died for you in reparation for your sins.
God 'drew' you to Him.

God worked in your heart to align your will to His.
God did all the work in other words.

My question: What did you do that God didn't enable you to do with your own 'free' will?

I'll answer this in my next post.

Rob

Do a bit of research on synergism vs monergism. Salvation is provided by God, initiated by God, but it is not foisted on us. We have a will, intellect, and responsibility to receive or reject truth, light, Him. It is incorrect to say that it is all of God (it is in the sense of His provision, which we could not do), since we have to appropriate or receive it. Our response is genuine. Salvation, if it is based on love/relationship rather than metaphysical change, is not unilateral nor is it foisted on us against our wills. Jesus wanted to gather Jerusalem, but they were NOT WILLING (God was willing!).

Lk. 7:30 "But the Pharisees and experts in the law (they) rejected God's purposes (will) for themselves..."

Mt. 23:37 "Jerusalem...how often I have longed to gather your children together...BUT YOU were NOT WILLING."

There is an I and a You. God's will is not the only factor in the universe (by His sovereign choice to create significant others who have a say in give-and-take relationships...the rebellion of most of the planet is evidence of this...this is not the Kingdom of God yet from sea to sea).
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
RobE said:
My answer: God didn't enable you to rebel.

As far as your objection goes....Do you believe the Holy Spirit works within you to create a new spiritual man?

Rob


The Spirit's drawing to conversion can be resisted (hell is full of these people). Likewise, His work of grace in the believer can be resisted. This is why we are exhorted to obedient choices in response to His love and transforming power.

Calvinism: regeneration precedes faith (causative; faith is a gift).

Alternate: repentant faith (process; response to truth) precedes regeneration (all of God; instantaneous).

This book does a good job of biblical exegesis/word studies to flesh out key issues:

(I do not agree with all its conclusions...it is for OSAS and against Open Theism...click next page for contents)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0962485047/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-7165852-5375957#reader-link
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
When we trust in Christ as our Savior, the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the Body of Christ.
1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body — whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free — and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

In Christ,
Bob Hill
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Bob Hill said:
When we trust in Christ as our Savior, the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the Body of Christ.
1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body — whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free — and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

In Christ,
Bob Hill


True, true :wave:
 

RobE

New member
Bob Hill said:
When we trust in Christ as our Savior, the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the Body of Christ.
1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body — whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free — and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

Exactly! Nice to see you're still reading.

Respectfully,

Rob
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
As I've said before, it's like Wonderland. God's not there, because it doesn't exist. That doesn't mean He isn't omnipresent. So, just because He doesn't know something that doesn't exist, that doesn't mean He isn't omniscient.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Lighthouse said:
As I've said before, it's like Wonderland. God's not there, because it doesn't exist. That doesn't mean He isn't omnipresent. So, just because He doesn't know something that doesn't exist, that doesn't mean He isn't omniscient.


Sweet parallel :patrol:

(I would also add that the future is not a place or thing).
 

seekinganswers

New member
I have a bone to pick with the theology of the open theists, for I have spent time in prayer and thought and have found something troubling in their thought.

What I find to be troubling, especially in the open theism of the dispensationalist variety, is that they have rooted the Creation in the wrong foundation. They truthfully say that freedom and love go hand in hand, but they wrongly order the two so as to create a false contingency for love found in freedom.

For the open theists freedom must come before love, for the God who loves must grant freedom, and therefore must allow the Creation to be free before he can truly love. Love is not love without the freedom of the other, according to them. This is where we go wrong, however, for freedom does not dictate love, but the converse is much more true; love is the grounding for freedom. In other words, one does not find freedom before one encounters love, but one must encounter love before one finds true freedom. As the apostle Paul clarifies in I Corinthians 13, whatever we might have without having love, that which we have is nothing. It is also interesting that nowhere in Paul's musings on love does he ever state that love must allow another to be "free". Instead Paul images a love which rejects coersion as the true power for the power of the one who can Create, the one who can give life and grace. Coersion and violence only have a power to destroy. True power comes in the Creation and the building-up of that Creation (faith, hope, and love).

Open Theism has committed a falacy of logic, for though it sees the necesity of love, it assumes that love is weak. The reason that love cannot respond through coersion is that it no longer is love when it uses coersion, this much is very true. But to assume that because love is not coersive it must therefore be weak is the fallacy. Love does not yield to the "freedom" of the other to coerse. Love does not yield to the slavery of coersion simply because "freedom" has given the coersion power. Love yields because true power is not in the ability of another to destroy what has been created, but the very essense of the Creation is grounded in the love of God, which does not destroy but brings out of the destruction (the chaos) life and space for life (which is truly powerful). Love is not grounded in freedom (thus allowing for an opposite of love in coersion and violence); love is the ground of the Creation so that anything that has been created is created in love. Freedom cannot exist without love (not the other way around). Love does not depend on freedom (just as the Creation is not destroyed through the introduction of the coersion of sin). Sin is not freedom, but is slavery and destruction. And the only power that sin has is drawn from the true power that has substance, that truly is because God has brought it into existance. Sin is the power that is weak, while love in its apparent weakness is true strength.

Thus, what we witness in the garden with the presence of the trees is not freedom (as if man could become sovereign by eating from them). The trees in the garden represent choice, a choice between the God of love and the God who is coersive and violent (and choice cannot be equated to "freedom," for freedom indicates sovereignty, while choice is volitional; one can have volition even as that one remains contingent; even a slave has volition). Now in my statement of our choice between gods it is not to say that God is dependant upon our choices, but that we either receive the God who reveals Godself as the caretaker of the Creation, or we reject this God in order to fashion a god of our own making, a god who rules in coersion and violence, the god who is our very self enslaved to sin, humanity and empire. The humans in the garden do not exercise freedom, but enter into slavery, as they fashion god in their own image and draw all the rest of humanity (and the Creation, for that matter) into this idolatry.

We have to ask what is freedom? From what I can gather, the Open Theists define freedom in the ability to make choices that are independant from forces external to the person. We are free in as much as our choices are not contingent on something else. If we define freedom in this way there is but one who is free, for God is the only one who can produce something from chaos. Our choices are not in freedom. We are not free beings who consist in ourselves. Our existence is contingent upon God, and in that respect we are never free. This contingency encompasses both the good and the evil in our world. Whether one is righteous or unrighteous their life depends on the grace of God "for he causes it to rain upon the righteous and the unrighteous alike." We can never make a choice out of freedom because we are never free. The only one who is truly free is God, for God can Create (that is to say produce something out of nothing).

Now this is not my support of the doctrine of Creation ex nihilo (though you might be able to see some semblance within). The ex nihilo doctrine assumes that there was nothing in the beginning by a definition of lacking that is grounded in a very abstract language, i.e. a vacuum or emptiness. However, the scriptures do not make use of such language as this, but rather draw from the ancient near-eastern cultures to talk about the tohu vavohu (Genesis 1:2) (or the embodiment of chaos and disorder). The world without God is not nothing per se, but is nothing in the sense that it has no telos no ultimacy in being. Its substance is forever degenerate; it is death and destruction, which truthfully means it lacks life.

Thus, the image of the Creation without God is the image of chaos, in which nothing can be sustained over time, but is doomed to destruction and death. It is only with the movement of the Word of God (Christ) and the "breath" of God (the Spirit) that the chaos is broken. God from the very beginning enters into the Creation to give ultimacy and purpose to that which was without. The "substance" which was no substance at all is displaced by what truly is. So darkness is cast-out and divided by what truly is (light). The watery chaos "substance" is displaced to make room for true substance (air which sustains life, while water drowns it out). And the oceans are divided to bring fourth land, a place for creatures to live. The first half of the Creation is the Creation of space in the midst of chaos and the second half fills that space with life. This is the image of Creation, and it does not end with verse 3 of chapter 2 of Genesis. Gensis 1 is a telling of the Creation of God from beginning to end (from chaos to worship), in which God the Creator (the trinity) brings life through God's very self, and sustains that life in love. Even before there is freedom for humanity (in that humanity did not even exist) there was love.

So to say that God can only be loving of the Creation if humanity is free is a fallacy, for God's love sustains the Creation from beginning to end, and freedom for humanity (that is the freedom granted to us by God, a volition or a will) comes subsequent to that love. Our will depends on God's love, not love on the will.

Now this has been an extended commentary on what I have been pondering and praying about over the past few weeks, and I hope that someone will be able to respond. I know my posts are long, but to develop these ideas it is necessary for the post to be lengthy (because I can't defend my ideas without support). Much of what I have written actually stems from the recently published encyclical of Pope Benedict XVI (which I read and by which I was inspired to write). Though I am not Roman Catholic I find his writing to be simple and profound enough for even a protestant like me to be able to read it and be moved by it, for it is grounded in the life of the true Christian (and even embraces the message of Luther to the church, to be grounded in the scriptures and in Christ). What more could we ask of our Catholic brothers and sisters?

Peace,
Michael
 

RobE

New member
Reply to Lighthouse

Reply to Lighthouse

Lighthouse said:
As I've said before, it's like Wonderland. God's not there, because it doesn't exist. That doesn't mean He isn't omnipresent. So, just because He doesn't know something that doesn't exist, that doesn't mean He isn't omniscient.

I'll believe it if you tell me where this place that doesn't exist is? If you tell me that God foreknows of its existence like before He made all of creation out of nothing, I promise to believe you.

Can I tell you of one place that God knew would exist before it did exist?------Earth. Was God on Earth? No. He wasn't. Did He know of it when it came into His mind? Foreknowledge, huh.

Rob
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
RobE said:
I'll believe it if you tell me where this place that doesn't exist is? If you tell me that God foreknows of its existence like before He made all of creation out of nothing, I promise to believe you.

Can I tell you of one place that God knew would exist before it did exist?------Earth. Was God on Earth? No. He wasn't. Did He know of it when it came into His mind? Foreknowledge, huh.

Rob


Remember that God foreknows some things, but this does not mean He foreknows all things. It is also possible that the exact nature of creation was not in God's mind from eternity past. At some point in His endless existence, He could have formulated the details of the type of creation He would bring to pass, whether man would have hair or fur, whether earth would be the first or third planet from the sun, whether He would put man in Eden or China, etc. This foreknown thing before creation could have a relative time frame. It was also fully in God's power to bring it to pass. One cannot argue from this specific example to say that He foreknows things that He has given us freedom to bring about (e.g. does He really foreknow every move in every chess game in history from eternity past? The only way He could would be to wrongly assume that the potential future is like the fixed past, there is some parallel universe/sci-fi explanation, or that determinism rules with God causing every chess move instead of the players).
 

godrulz

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Hall of Fame
Seeking:

Can someone give us the Reader's Digest version of the post?

Sanders reminds us that Open Theism focuses too much on freedom (is that your premise?). The focal point should be love. God primarily desires reciprocal love relationships instead of robotic creatures. For this to be possible, there must be a give-and-take relationship with significant others. Freedom is a means to the end of love relationships (love is not coerced, involves volition; relationships are not unilateral, but must be freely entered into and maintained). Freedom is not illusory, but it is not freedom for freedom sake. The highest good is love and relationship. Freedom is merely an essential aspect to achieve God's highest good for Himself and His creation. Without freedom there is no responsibility. We are in the image of God. God is also free and not confined to a deterministic universe. Contingency is real pal. Get used to it (you live as if it is true). This does not mean our freedom is unlimited, but it is genuine.
 
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