ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[themuzicman]

The right term would be what for God's knowledge increasing?

Rob

That God's omniscience is dynamic, knowing all things that are knowable, and gaining knowledge as they become knowable.

Michael

 

[RobE]

Process theologians also believe that Jesus rose from the dead. Does that make you a process theologian as well?

Your argument is flawed in about every way imaginable. The Bible specifically says that Jesus learned while He was here on Earth so what's the bid deal anyway?

In order for you argument to be at all valid, you would have to demonstrate that the idea of a God that learns is an a sufficient condition of process theology. That is to say that you would have to demonstrate that process theology is inescapable once one accepts the idea of a learning God. Simply pointing out a single common point of theology does nothing to equate the two doctines.


No, it doesn't. What would negate it as an object of knowledge would be if it were both in the future and a product of one or more free will agents.


Resting in Him,
Clete

Yet the basis for process is that learning must occur. It's the centerpiece. That's why it's important to draw the similarities. Can one who knows everything learn?

Rob

 

[themuzicman]

Yet the basis for process is that learning must occur. It's the centerpiece. That's why it's important to draw the similarities. Can one who knows everything learn?

Rob

Actually, the centerpiece of ProcessTheism is that God learns about Himself as He sees his reflection in creation.

Michael

 

[RobE]

Yet the Superbowl hasn't occured yet since it's still in the future. It being in the future doesn't negate it as an object of knowledge does it?​

No, it doesn't. What would negate it as an object of knowledge would be if it were both in the future and a product of one or more free will agents.

Yet, according to you, all things are products of a free will agent, to which I agree. Namely God in my instance and whoever in yours. The Superbowl hasn't occured and is in the future.

Weren't the teams made up of free will agents?
Wasn't the NFL established by free will agents?
Didn't God make the players and watch their talents increase?

What's your point, Clete?

Rob

 

[RobE]

Omniscience. He knows all that is knowable. He knows reality as it is (correctly distinguishes possible, actual/certain, probable, necessary and distinguishes the reality of the past, present, future). God knows all truth exhaustively. This does not mean He knows that which is possible as actual before it becomes certain (contingencies).

Knowable to you or to God?

Does God increase in knowledge(learn) when those certainties come to fruition?

Rob

 

[RobE]

If the Second Coming of Christ happens today, there will be no Superbowl. If there is a terrorist attack in Detroit, there may not be a game. The game is still potential as to its details and outcome. It is virtually certain that it will be played. It is certain now (vs 5 months ago) who will be in the game. It is not certain who will get injured, score, pick their nose, drop the ball, etc. Do not confuse the fixed playoff result with the yet future Superbowl. We can know somethings about the future, but not all things (assume no other variable is introduced to change the future).

So you are submitting that if some part of God's creation changes then there might not be a Superbowl. I would agree, but it's all contingent on our Lord, not your knowledge.

You said:

If God returns,
If terrorists which God created and has the ability to forestall,
If God's creation get sick from bacteria or viruses which God created,
If the gravity which God created causes the ball to be dropped by God's creature......

Who could possibly keep track of all the things that God created?

Can you think of His name?

Rob

 

[Clete]

Yet, according to you, all things are products of a free will agent, to which I agree. Namely God in my instance and whoever in yours. The Superbowl hasn't occured and is in the future.

All things are not the product of a free will agent. The posision of Halley's Comet on March 3rd in the year 2012 at 3:32:32am GMT is not a product of anyone's free will and thus it is knowable in spite of the fact that it is in the future.

Weren't the teams made up of free will agents?
Wasn't the NFL established by free will agents?
Didn't God make the players and watch their talents increase?

Yes! And thus the outcome or even the fact that it will take place is unknowable. Reliably predictable perhaps but not knowable.

What's your point, Clete?

My point should have been quite clear. It sucks having to point out every detail.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

That God's omniscience is dynamic, knowing all things that are knowable, and gaining knowledge as they become knowable.

Michael

Also, God's knowledge of the possible becomes knowledge of the actual as the possible becomes actual in reality.

 

[themuzicman]

Also, God's knowledge of the possible becomes knowledge of the actual as the possible becomes actual in reality.

:up:

 

[godrulz]

Yet the basis for process is that learning must occur. It's the centerpiece. That's why it's important to draw the similarities. Can one who knows everything learn?

Rob

I can know everything in today's paper exhaustively. I cannot know what next week's news will be in every detail since it is not there to know. When the possible news becomes the fixed past and recorded in the paper, then I know all there is to know again. The potential future and its myriads of possibilities (contingent choices are significant, not illusory) leads to an ever growing body of knowledge that was previously unknowable as a certainty, even for an omniscient being.

This is why omniscience should more precisely be defined as knowing all that is knowable or truthfully knowing all of reality (which must be limited to the past and present...the future is not there as an object of actual knowledge...this is by God's sovereign choice rather than a knowable, deterministic universe at the expense of love, freedom, and relationship cf. there are limitations to omnipotence).

 

[godrulz]

Yet the Superbowl hasn't occured yet since it's still in the future. It being in the future doesn't negate it as an object of knowledge does it?​

Yet, according to you, all things are products of a free will agent, to which I agree. Namely God in my instance and whoever in yours. The Superbowl hasn't occured and is in the future.

Weren't the teams made up of free will agents?
Wasn't the NFL established by free will agents?
Didn't God make the players and watch their talents increase?

What's your point, Clete?

Rob

The outcome of the future Superbowl is not fixed. It is unsettled and unknowable until the game unfolds. We can make predictions based on knowledge of the past and contingencies, but this is still possible/probable knowledge vs certain/actual. Quit blurring this fundamental distinction and you will understand the correct view better.

 

[godrulz]

Knowable to you or to God?

Does God increase in knowledge(learn) when those certainties come to fruition?

Rob

It is not so much as increasing in knowledge as the nature of His knowledge changes from possible/probable to actual/certain in those details. Your Platonic assumptions of 'perfection' are flawed. A clock is perfect because it does change. If it did not change, it would only be correct twice a day. There is no problem with God's knowledge increasing as long as He knows possible objects of knowledge exhaustively, which He does. The knowing of a nothing (the future) is a bald contradiction and not a deficiency in omniscience.

 

[godrulz]

So you are submitting that if some part of God's creation changes then there might not be a Superbowl. I would agree, but it's all contingent on our Lord, not your knowledge.

You said:

If God returns,
If terrorists which God created and has the ability to forestall,
If God's creation get sick from bacteria or viruses which God created,
If the gravity which God created causes the ball to be dropped by God's creature......

Who could possibly keep track of all the things that God created?

Can you think of His name?

Rob

God knows the past and present exhaustively. He can extrapolate the proximal future, in general terms, to a high degree. He knows contingencies as contingencies and certainties/actualities as certainties. You are failing to grasp the God-given logical parameters in this debate.

God is omniscient, but what are the possible objects of certain knowledge (past, present, but not future= future is fundamentally different than the past/present by God's choice= open vs closed...it is thus known as such, as a by-product of the type of creation God sovereignly chose...any limitation in what is knowable is by God's design to retain freedom and love). Fatalism would lead to exhaustive foreknowledge, but at too great a price to relationship, God's greater desire than being absolutely all-knowing or all-controlling.

 

[RobE]

All things are not the product of a free will agent. The posision of Halley's Comet on March 3rd in the year 2012 at 3:32:32am GMT is not a product of anyone's free will and thus it is knowable in spite of the fact that it is in the future.

My point should have been quite clear. It sucks having to point out every detail.

It's a product of God's free will and therefore according to your position UNKNOWABLE!

Rob

 

[RobE]

I can know everything in today's paper exhaustively. I cannot know what next week's news will be in every detail since it is not there to know. When the possible news becomes the fixed past and recorded in the paper, then I know all there is to know again. The potential future and its myriads of possibilities (contingent choices are significant, not illusory) leads to an ever growing body of knowledge that was previously unknowable as a certainty, even for an omniscient being.

This is why omniscience should more precisely be defined as knowing all that is knowable or truthfully knowing all of reality (which must be limited to the past and present...the future is not there as an object of actual knowledge...this is by God's sovereign choice rather than a knowable, deterministic universe at the expense of love, freedom, and relationship cf. there are limitations to omnipotence).

How does your lack of knowledge of something preclude God from having exact knowledge of the same thing?

Rob

 

[RobE]

You are failing to grasp the God-given logical parameters in this debate.

Godrulz,

We've gone over and over many of these points. Let me ask you if you believe God, the creator, is able to understand His creation fully or only partially, and why?

Rob

 

[RobE]

Reply to Godrulz

Reply to Godrulz

Originally Posted by RobE

So you are submitting that if some part of God's creation changes then there might not be a Superbowl. I would agree, but it's all contingent on our Lord, not your knowledge.

You said:

If God returns,
If terrorists which God created and has the ability to forestall,
If God's creation get sick from bacteria or viruses which God created,
If the gravity which God created causes the ball to be dropped by God's creature......

Who could possibly keep track of all the things that God created?

Can you think of His name?

Rob​

God knows the past and present exhaustively. He can extrapolate the proximal future, in general terms, to a high degree. He knows contingencies as contingencies and certainties/actualities as certainties. You are failing to grasp the God-given logical parameters in this debate.

God is omniscient, but what are the possible objects of certain knowledge (past, present, but not future= future is fundamentally different than the past/present by God's choice= open vs closed...it is thus known as such, as a by-product of the type of creation God sovereignly chose...any limitation in what is knowable is by God's design to retain freedom and love). Fatalism would lead to exhaustive foreknowledge, but at too great a price to relationship, God's greater desire than being absolutely all-knowing or all-controlling.

Godrulz,

Please tell me what kinds of things could stop the Superbowl from occuring that are outside of God's control. When you consider this I want you to try to figure out what you can do if God doesn't allow you to do it. Don't you see. God is in complete control one way or the other.

Rob

 

[Clete]

Rob,

No one is suggesting that the world is out of control and beyond God's ability to keep a handle on or keep track of. Please try to limit your arguments to positions we actually hold. It's a wast of everyone's time (including your own) to argue against ideas which no one has put forward or even believes.

 

[godrulz]

It's a product of God's free will and therefore according to your position UNKNOWABLE!

Rob

You do not understand his position. :sigh:

 

[godrulz]

How does your lack of knowledge of something preclude God from having exact knowledge of the same thing?

Rob

In many things it does not. I do not know what is happening in New York right now, but God does. This is exhaustive past and present knowledge that God has (not to be confused with foreknowledge, which is incoherent if it relates to genuine contingencies that may or may not happen...if they are not contingencies, then there is no love, freedom, responsibility, reciprocal relationships...we live in The Matrix :noid: ).