ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Berean Todd]

Adam, not God, is responsible for the Fall. God gave free moral agency to man. This made the Fall a possibility, but not a necessity.
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Adam is morally responsible for the fall, hence the curse, but God still predestined it, along with Christ on the cross. Your God is much too small ...

 

[Carver]

You can't get that from that passage, the word "foreordained" or "predestined" in 1 Peter 1:20 is the word προγινώσκω , which is transliterated proginōskō and means to know beforehand. Not to have a possible plan, God KNEW and PLANNED beforehand that Christ would die for sins.

Real quick, to know is not the same thing as to plan. Either you left out some possible definitions, or you made that verse a lot more friendly to Open Theism.

 

[Berean Todd]

Real quick, to know is not the same thing as to plan. Either you left out some possible definitions, or you made that verse a lot more friendly to Open Theism.

No, that first clause of 1 Pet 1:20 is:

μέν προγινώσκω πρό καταβολή κόσμος

The first word, transliterated 'men' is a primary participle and is an affirmation in an assertive or intensive sense. The King James in this case seems to have the most literal translation of it, being "Who verily ..." I'm not usually a big KJV fan, but here they are spot on, most other versions don't seem to carry over the intensity of the opening affirmation.

The second word is 'proginōskō' , it is not the same as predestine no, but it implies specific knowledge of the event, He KNEW it was going to happen. There is no indication of any other possibility here. God KNEW it would come about.

The third word, 'pro' is "in front of" or "prior to", a clear temporal indicator in this context here.

The next word is 'katabolē', and is literally "founding".

Last is 'cosmos' and is the world, or the universe.

So, Jesus VERILY was KNOWN/FOREKNOWN before the founding of the universe to be this spotless lamb for sin.

 

[ChristisKing]

Athanasius against the world

Athanasius against the world

:BRAVO: :BRAVO: :first: Preach it brother!!! I've beaten my head against the wall enough on this argument here, but great job you're giving them, particularly in this post!!!

Hey thanks, I was beginning to wonder if there was anyone else in here who still believed in a BIG God, I was starting to feel like "Athanasius against the world." :cheers:

 

[Servo]

Hey thanks, I was beginning to wonder if there was anyone else in here who still believed in a BIG God, I was starting to feel like "Athanasius against the world." :cheers:

Re-read post #77.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Where is any of that in the bible? That's just what you say. I'm saying that is completely unscriptural and have given you a plain Scriptural text to prove it.

1PE 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1PE 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

This say's Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world, not that it was a contingency or He didn't know it was going to happen. If you can't deal with this verse then change your theology, don't go into a philisophical spin. Let God be true and every man a liar.

have you lost it? all 1 Peter 1:20 says is that Christ was foreknown before the foundation of the world. it doesn't say he was already destined to be sacrificed for mankind, all it says is that he was foreknown, i.e. he is eternal and existed from before the foundation of the world. it says nothing about being predestined to die from before the foundation of the world. you are reading that into the text.

 

[Berean Todd]

have you lost it? all 1 Peter 1:20 says is that Christ was foreknown before the foundation of the world. it doesn't say he was already destined to be sacrificed for mankind, all it says is that he was foreknown, i.e. he is eternal and existed from before the foundation of the world. it says nothing about being predestined to die from before the foundation of the world. you are reading that into the text.

No, but apparantly you have lost it, because what you are trying to tell us is that the Bible, God's breathed out Word, is trying to tell us on this point "God foreknew God, but was manifest ..." That is stupid and nonsensical. The verse before talked about Christ's blood, the verse after talks about our salvation through faith, the verse in the middle is obviously talking about the work of the cross.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

No, but apparantly you have lost it, because what you are trying to tell us is that the Bible, God's breathed out Word, is trying to tell us on this point "God foreknew God, but was manifest ..." That is stupid and nonsensical. The verse before talked about Christ's blood, the verse after talks about our salvation through faith, the verse in the middle is obviously talking about the work of the cross.

no, it is not obviously talking about that at all.

1 Peter 1
17If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

18knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers,

19but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

20For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you

21who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

22Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart,

23for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduing word of God.

i quoted both verses before 20 and after to give us some context on what Peter is stating. Peter begins by stating that if we address the Father as God then we should conduct ourselves in fear (respect) while on the earth (verse 17).

he then states in verse 18 that we also ought to do this because we were redeemed with somethijng much more valuable than gold or silver, and in verse 19 he declares that it was the blood of Christ. now in verse 20 he expands on who Christ is, this is made clear by the phrase "for HE was foreknown". thus, he is speaking about the person, not about an event. an event is not a person, which is what "He" denotes. thus, Peter declares that Christ was foreknown from before the foundation of the world, echoing what Christ uttered when he said "glorify me father with the glory i had with you before the foundation of the world" in John 17:5.

in the latter part of verse 20 Peter states that although Christ was from before the beginning of the world, he was only revealed in "these last times" and that for us. in verse 21 Peter expands on who we are in Christ, namely believers in God who raised Christ from the dead and glorified him. verse 22 goes back to the original point of how we ought to conduct ourselves and appeals to our obedience first in the truth, purifying our souls and how we ought to love our brothers based on that. verse 23 gives yet another reason for doing this in that we have been born again now of that which is perishable, but that which is imperishable.

 

[godrulz]

"God's Strategy in Human History" Forster

C. Gordon Olson's "Beyond Calvinism and Arminianism: An inductive, Mediate Theology of Salvation"

These books and others do detailed word studies on predestination, foreknowledge, etc. Their insights will refute the proof texting from our Calvinistic friends. There is more to the story than Strong's concordance. We must guard against exegetical fallacies (see D.A. Carson's book on the subject). A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

 

[Berean Todd]

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

As so many open theists make apparantly clear with their little knowledge ...

 

[Nathon Detroit]

As so many open theists make apparantly clear with their little knowledge ...

So..... you are saying I am predestined to stupidity????

P.S. If I (we) have such "little knowledge" why is that I know how to spell "apparently" yet apparently you don't???

Normally I overlook spelling errors but when someone is insulting my intelligence I feel the need to be a tad more picky.

 

[ChristisKing]

Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world

Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world

have you lost it? all 1 Peter 1:20 says is that Christ was foreknown before the foundation of the world. it doesn't say he was already destined to be sacrificed for mankind, all it says is that he was foreknown, i.e. he is eternal and existed from before the foundation of the world. it says nothing about being predestined to die from before the foundation of the world. you are reading that into the text.

The Son of God existed before the foundation of the world, not the Son of God in human flesh a.k.a "Christ." When you say Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world, you've said it all! You are agreeing with us, because if Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world that means His having to take on flesh was foreordained and He only took on flesh for one reason, "the fall." And if the fall was foreordained before creation, well....there goes Open Theism. :wave2:

You see, we actually have much in agreement, Christ was indeed foreordained before creation.

1PE 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1PE 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

 

[drbrumley]

Adam is morally responsible for the fall, hence the curse, but God still predestined it, along with Christ on the cross. Your God is much too small ...

:doh: Another clueless wonder.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

The Son of God existed before the foundation of the world, not the Son of God in human flesh a.k.a "Christ." When you say Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world, you've said it all! You are agreeing with us, because if Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world that means His having to take on flesh was foreordained and He only took on flesh for one reason, "the fall." And if the fall was foreordained before creation, well....there goes Open Theism. :wave2:

where did i ever say his having to take on flesh was foreordained and unavoidable? and by the way, even if the fall was ordained by God or in some way inevitable, that does not mean open theism goes out the window. it just means that for whatever reason, the fall was going to happen and God knew it as thus. it does not mean all things are predestined or that the future is closed.

 

[ChristisKing]

Christ is God in the flesh.

Christ is God in the flesh.

where did i ever say his having to take on flesh was foreordained and unavoidable?

Here.

all 1 Peter 1:20 says is that Christ was foreknown before the foundation of the world.

Christ is God in the flesh.

 

[godrulz]

As so many open theists make apparantly clear with their little knowledge ...

Most Open Theists were once classic theists. Many are well credentialed. Calvinism is not the only kid on the block that should be considered a possible biblical view.

 

[ChristisKing]

But it's the only kid that is thoroughly consistent

But it's the only kid that is thoroughly consistent

Most Open Theists were once classic theists. Many are well credentialed. Calvinism is not the only kid on the block that should be considered a possible biblical view.

But it's the only kid that is thoroughly consistent and embraces all those "predestination" and "election" verses.

 

[godrulz]

But it's the only kid that is thoroughly consistent and embraces all those "predestination" and "election" verses.

Open Theism affirms that God predestines some things, but not all things. The predestination proof texts you use are taken literally, while you must ignore the verses that show some of the future is unsettled or genuinely open. Likewise, a strong case can be made for corporate vs individual election. While we talk about the same terms, it is possible to understand different things by them based on the evidence (of course, contradictory views are not both right). There is not a proof text that an Open Theist could not give a cogent, alternative explanation. Closed theists must make our proof texts figurative to retain consistency. This is not warranted (e.g. God changing His mind in response to changing circumstances).

 

[Lighthouse]

Where is any of that in the bible? That's just what you say. I'm saying that is completely unscriptural and have given you a plain Scriptural text to prove it.

1PE 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1PE 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

This say's Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world, not that it was a contingency or He didn't know it was going to happen. If you can't deal with this verse then change your theology, don't go into a philisophical spin. Let God be true and every man a liar.

It says that Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world. Not that His sacrafice was.:doh:

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Christ is God in the flesh.

Christ has not always been in the flesh, but he has always been Christ. though he was not always called "Christ" (meaning messiah), he was still the same person/being. the reason the verse says that Christ was foreknown is because that was the fitting title for his present state of existence. that was what they were proclaiming to the people, that Jesus was Christ and it was therefore a fitting thing to say that the Christ, even though he was not always the Christ, was foreknown from before the foundation of the world.