ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Carver]

Go for it...

I'm giving the Calvinists a chance to come up with it first. If they can't, I'll play a little devil's advocate and help them out. But I don't really enjoy supporting positions I disagree with, so I'm not going to unless I have to.

I'm looking for the little Calvinist that could....

 

[Nathon Detroit]

God is the master chess player. Being the pinnacle of intelligence He can work His plan in spite of our unreliable wills. Masterfully weaving His truth and desire in a unlimited store of possibilities.

Calvinism's version of God has Him playing chess with Himself in a sad and tragic lonely reality where He is the only consciousness that exists.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

God did not predestine Christ to come to Earth, and die for our sins [be the Savior], until after The Fall.

but it was already established from before the foundation of the world that if/when mankind sinned, Christ would come to earth and die for our sins right?

 

[godrulz]

I'm giving the Calvinists a chance to come up with it first. If they can't, I'll play a little devil's advocate and help them out. But I don't really enjoy supporting positions I disagree with, so I'm not going to unless I have to.

I'm looking for the little Calvinist that could....

Throw some hints for us non-Calvinists later. See if we can understand or refute it intuitively. I like playing games.

 

[Lighthouse]

Yes, G_I_T. Thak you for that. I've been searching for a competent explanation of that verse.

 

[godrulz]

but it was already established from before the foundation of the world that if/when mankind sinned, Christ would come to earth and die for our sins right?

His potential plan predated the Fall, if not creation. It was only implemented when the contingency became a necessity.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

His potential plan predated the Fall, if not creation. It was only implemented when the contingency became a necessity.

the plan predated all of creation, that's what "foundation of the world" means. see Ephesians 1:4.

 

[godrulz]

the plan predated all of creation, that's what "foundation of the world" means. see Ephesians 1:4.

This does not mean it was certain or implemented trillions of years ago. It was possible, probable, but not certain/actual until the Fall became a reality.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

This does not mean it was certain or implemented trillions of years ago. It was possible, probable, but not certain/actual until the Fall became a reality.

that's why it's called a "plan".

 

[Clete]

Most feel open theism is a subtype of Arminianism or free will theism as opposed to deterministic Calvinism. It has similarities, but many other differences. I like to call it an alternative, biblical view (mediate between Arm. and Cal.).

This is very simply not true. If anything, Arminianism is a subtype of Calvinism, although you'd never find a Calvinist (or an Arminian for that matter) who would agree with that. But be that as it may, Arminianism has more in common with Calvinism than it does Open Theism.
Pretty much the only important foundational similarity that Open Theism has with Arminianism is free-will. That single similarity does carry with it certain other theological conclusions that Arminians and Open Theists share but the Arminian comes to several correct conclusions in spite of themselves. They must overlook several logical inconsistencies in order to hold many of their views, a problem Calvinists don't have as badly. Calvinist are far more logically consistent than are Arminians except for when in comes to the implications of their definition of the word 'sovereign' and their belief in exhaustive predestination. When it comes to those two issues both Calvinists and Arminians right away start using words like "antinomy" and phrases like "spiritually discerned" which are simply escape hatches for them so that they can ignore the logical implications.
I could go on and on but the point is, I, as an Open Theists, am not in any respect and Arminian. Arminians are just too Calvinistic for me.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[ChristisKing]

Before the foundation of the world

Before the foundation of the world

God did not predestine Christ to come to Earth, and die for our sins [be the Savior], until after The Fall.

I think on this very point Open Theism rises or falls, because if God did indeed did predestine Christ to come and die before creation than of course He predestined the fall, etc. etc. and etc.

Thank God He revealed this to us:

1PE 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1PE 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

"After the fall"--Lighthouse and Open Theism

"Before the fall"-Apostle Peter and Holy Spirit

 

[God_Is_Truth]

I think on this very point Open Theism rises or falls

no, not even close. this just shows you don't understand what open theism is all about.

 

[ChristisKing]

no, not even close. this just shows you don't understand what open theism is all about.

Me or lighthouse?

Or is it Peter who is doesn't understand?

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Me or lighthouse?

Or is it Peter who is doesn't understand?

you

 

[Lighthouse]

It was a contingency before The Fall. But only implemented as "going to happen" after The Fall.

You are right, that God would have had to predestine The Fall, if He predestined Christ's sacrafice before The Fall. I contend that not only did He not predestine The Fall, but that He did not know if it would actually happen.

 

[godrulz]

It was a contingency before The Fall. But only implemented as "going to happen" after The Fall.

You are right, that God would have had to predestine The Fall, if He predestined Christ's sacrafice before The Fall. I contend that not only did He not predestine The Fall, but that He did not know if it would actually happen.

Adam, not God, is responsible for the Fall. God gave free moral agency to man. This made the Fall a possibility, but not a necessity.

Interestingly, Mormons say the Fall was a necessary probation from God for the spirit children. They are wrong on this point also.

 

[godrulz]

I think on this very point Open Theism rises or falls, because if God did indeed did predestine Christ to come and die before creation than of course He predestined the fall, etc. etc. and etc.

Thank God He revealed this to us:

1PE 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1PE 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

"After the fall"--Lighthouse and Open Theism

"Before the fall"-Apostle Peter and Holy Spirit

God formulated a plan due to the possibility of sin. He did not implement the plan until the actuality of sin. Christ was chosen early, but only manifest after the fact of the Fall.

God is not responsible for evil. This is contrary to explicit revelation of His character and ways. Jesus came to oppose and destroy sin and evil, not affirm it as God's will.

 

[ChristisKing]

Let God be true and every man a liar.

Let God be true and every man a liar.

It was a contingency before The Fall. But only implemented as "going to happen" after The Fall.

You are right, that God would have had to predestine The Fall, if He predestined Christ's sacrafice before The Fall. I contend that not only did He not predestine The Fall, but that He did not know if it would actually happen.

Where is any of that in the bible? That's just what you say. I'm saying that is completely unscriptural and have given you a plain Scriptural text to prove it.

1PE 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1PE 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

This say's Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world, not that it was a contingency or He didn't know it was going to happen. If you can't deal with this verse then change your theology, don't go into a philisophical spin. Let God be true and every man a liar.

 

[Berean Todd]

Where is any of that in the bible? That's just what you say. I'm saying that is completely unscriptural and have given you a plain Scriptural text to prove it.

1PE 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1PE 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

This say's Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world, not that it was a contingency or He didn't know it was going to happen. If you can't deal with this verse then change your theology, don't go into a philisophical spin. Let God be true and every man a liar.

:BRAVO: :BRAVO: :first: Preach it brother!!! I've beaten my head against the wall enough on this argument here, but great job you're giving them, particularly in this post!!!

 

[Berean Todd]

God formulated a plan due to the possibility of sin. He did not implement the plan until the actuality of sin. Christ was chosen early, but only manifest after the fact of the Fall.
.

You can't get that from that passage, the word "foreordained" or "predestined" in 1 Peter 1:20 is the word προγινώσκω , which is transliterated proginōskō and means to know beforehand. Not to have a possible plan, God KNEW and PLANNED beforehand that Christ would die for sins.