ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[elected4ever]

If God knew you would say yes, then that means you could not have said no, doesn't it?

There in lies the rub. The truth is, I did not know that I would not say no. My choice was my own.

 

[elected4ever]

Would the future be considered part of "all things?"

1 John 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

amen!!!!!! :BRAVO:

 

[Mr. 5020]

If God knew you would say yes, then that means you could not have said no, doesn't it?

There's a difference between God knowing what you are going to do, and God making you do it.

 

[Lighthouse]

There in lies the rub. The truth is, I did not know that I would not say no. My choice was my own.

Do you really not see how illogical this is?

 

[Lighthouse]

If God knew you would say yes, could you have said no?

 

[elected4ever]

Apples and Oranges, E4e.

Your wife did not know that you would pick clam chowder in the same sense that you are suggesting that God knows your future actions. Correct me if I'm wrong but you think that God could not possibly be wrong about what He knows your future actions will be but that cannot be said of your wife. In the strictest sense of the word, the best your wife could do is reliably predict your choice. Is that not correct?

Resting in Him,
Clete

You emphasis is own the wrong thing. It is not that my wife offered but that i chose. To me I could have said no in ether case. The fact is i didn't and that is the point. Free to make a choice.

 

[godrulz]

Just because God doesn't know what one might do tomorrow doesn't mean He doesn't know whehter they are saved or not. And if we are saved, His mind is made up. He doesn't change His mind when it's made up.

Hezekiah?

 

[elected4ever]

If God knew you would say yes, could you have said no?

The question is moot. I can't put the clam chowder back in the can ether.

 

[Mr. 5020]

If God knew you would say yes, could you have said no?

If I would have said no, God would have known that I would say no. His foreknowledge does not override our free will.

 

[godrulz]

No, God was acting according to His preordained plan set from the foundation of the world. God foreknew everything from the foundation of the world. God knows and we do not know until we are told and people think that humans are sooooo smart. What a joke.

The meticulous, exhaustive blueprint model is a theory without biblical basis. It locks God into a fatalistic future.

 

[godrulz]

Calvinists are not the only ones that believe God knows the entire future.

Arminians. However, elected is arguing from a deterministic viewpoint (Calvin vs Arminian) even though he might deny it.

 

[godrulz]

No, I believe in free choice. It does not bother me to know that God already knew what choice i would make. It just fills me with the wonder of it all.

Exhaustive foreknowledge of future free will contingencies is a logical contradiction/absurdity. Free will choices have an element of uncertainty due to their contingency (alternatives). They may be known as possible or probable until they become certain/actual. For any choice (implies alternatives) to be known as a certainty, they must be in the fixed past or not free choices but coerced or determined.

 

[Shalom]

There's a difference between God knowing what you are going to do, and God making you do it.

But if God knows what your entire future is, and what you're always going to do, then he would also have been the author of the decisions you're going to make. Therefore there is no free will involved.

 

[godrulz]

This idea confuses me more than Calvinism. I can't reconcile God knowing the entire future, with free will. Did He create "the script" randomly somehow, then peek ahead? To me, if God can see the future, He must have planned it in the same act of creating it. At least with Calvinism it is logical that God would know the future.

Exactly. The future is not yet. It is not a thing or place that one can 'see' or know in advance. It does not diminish God's omniscience, but affirms that He sees and knows reality as it is (the past is fixed; the present is now; the future is not yet/open).

 

[Lighthouse]

Okay 5020, if God knew you would say no, could you have said yes?

 

[elected4ever]

But if God knows what your entire future is, and what you're always going to do, then he would also have been the author of the decisions you're going to make. Therefore there is no free will involved.

That is about as dumb a statement as I have ever heard.

 

[godrulz]

My wife ask me if I wonted clam chowder for supper or not. I said yes. and I got clam chowder. At the preaching of the word the Holy Spirit said that i needed a savior and would I trust Jesus to save me and I said yes and He saved me. I did not know until I was saved that I would be saved that night. How was I supposed to choose Jesus when I didn't even know who He was. It was my decision to make. No one twisted my arm. No one! Not even God. Even though He knew what my decision would be, He did not force me to believe.

This is begging the question/circular reasoning. You are assuming that God knew the decision from eternity past, but your illustrations do nothing to prove it. In fact, modal logic and biblical passages can demonstrate the incoherence of foreknowing free will choices trillions of years before they are made.

What mechanism is there for God to know who will win the Superbowl in 2010 even before He created the universe? Simple foreknowledge is an assumption, not a coherent answer. God knows the past and present exhaustively, but knows the future as open and unsettled (except for the things He determines to settle by His ability...e.g. first and second coming of Christ).

 

[Mr. 5020]

Okay 5020, if God knew you would say no, could you have said yes?

I'm going to answer the same way I did to the opposite question.

 

[godrulz]

Bob George, who I love, teaches the way you just explained, but like I said above, I just can't get it to flush logically.

You are brilliant and on the right track. I used to try to rationalize the traditional view and wondered why it did not make sense. I now know I was wrong and had to search for a more biblical alternative (that is also supported by many evangelical theologians and secular philosophers).

 

[Mr. 5020]

But if God knows what your entire future is, and what you're always going to do, then he would also have been the author of the decisions you're going to make. Therefore there is no free will involved.

Knowing something and being the author of it are two different things.