ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Nang]

Can you reference this?

Because I could not document a reference, I put this out in the form of a question. Anticipating being asked, I have gone back over everything I have read the last couple of weeks, and cannot find where I saw this attributed to Sanders . . .it must have been online, which means I may never find it, but I will try to do so.

Nang

 

[DFT_Dave]

I am glad we can agree on this fact.

I believe Jesus Christ was the Lamb of God covenantally considered "slain" before the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8)

Nang

Matthew 13:35 (New King James Version)

that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:

“ I will open My mouth in parables;
I will utter things kept secret from the
foundation of the world."

Footnotes: Matthew 13:35 Psalm 78:2

Psalm 78:2-4 (New King James Version)

2 I will open my mouth in a parable;
I will utter dark sayings of old,
3 Which we have heard and known,
And our fathers have told us.
4 We will not hide them from their children,
Telling to the generation to come the praises of the LORD,
And His strength and His wonderful works that He has done.

Question: How is it that "things kept secret from the foundation/beginning of the world according to Matthew, are things that "we have heard and known" according to the Psalms?

Whatever is kept secret or hidden from the "foundation of the world" would not have been known to anybody until Christ revealed it. But if these things have been hidden since the time of King David then the Greek phrase "ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου", found in Matthew 13:35, should not be rendered "from the foundation of the world" but "because of the spiritual disintegration (sin and rebellion) of the world"--καταβολῆς means to throw down, destroy, or disintegrate not to build up.

Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Again the phrase "ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου" is used and it makes more sense to render it "the Lamb slain because of the spiritual disintegration (sin and rebellion) of the world".

To say that Christ was slain before the world began makes no sense. To say that Christ was slain because of sin and rebellion makes perfect sense.

 

[Nang]

Whatever is kept secret or hidden from the "foundation of the world" would not have been known to anybody until Christ revealed it.

And Christ revealed and prophesied His cross work, in the garden of Eden, when He promised He would bruise the head of Satan. (Gen. 3:15)

But if these things have been hidden since the time of King David then the Greek phrase "ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου", found in Matthew 13:35, should not be rendered "from the foundation of the world" but "because of the spiritual disintegration (sin and rebellion) of the world"--καταβολῆς means to throw down, destroy, or disintegrate not to build up.

"These things" have always been revealed throughout the Scriptures; only God controls who will have eyes to see. Moses, the Psalms, and the Prophets all revealed the Christ and His sacrifice on the cross. Jesus said so, in Luke 24:44.

Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Again the phrase "ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου" is used and it makes more sense to render it "the Lamb slain because of the spiritual disintegration (sin and rebellion) of the world".

You are taking a Scriptural revelation of prophetic promise, and reducing it to mere justification. Which constitutes a taking away from the Word of God.

To say that Christ was slain before the world began makes no sense. To say that Christ was slain because of sin and rebellion makes perfect sense.

Christ "covenantally considered slain" before the foundation of the world, makes perfect sense if one comprehends Covenant Theology. Which is the belief that before God created all things, He planned the salvation of His creation, including a particular, foreknown portion of mankind, whom God knew would fall and temporally die in Adam.

There was an Everlasting Covenant made between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to resurrect this portion of (elect) humanity unto eternal life, who were "created in Christ Jesus." (Eph. 2:10)



Nang

 

[Lon]

Posted by DFT_Dave
Can I assume that you agree with my definition and description of "time"?

No Dave, I'm a bit unorthodox in my time ideology. When I bring it up, I've gotten less than gracious response so I'm not inclined to share too much for the pegging effects and giving it a rest. Instead I'll just say that I do believe sin greatly affects our perception of time and leave it with that.

I understand the OV problem and concern with time constraints, but it isn't one I share at all. Because I've taken flak, I'd gladly carry this conversation to PM, but I'd like to keep it out of thread.

 

[DFT_Dave]

And Christ revealed and prophesied His cross work, in the garden of Eden, when He promised He would bruise the head of Satan. (Gen. 3:15)

Yes, "in the Garden of Eden after Adam had sinned", but not before the world was created.

"These things" have always been revealed throughout the Scriptures; only God controls who will have eyes to see. Moses, the Psalms, and the Prophets all revealed the Christ and His sacrifice on the cross. Jesus said so, in Luke 24:44.

Yes, I agree, these things have been revealed as you say, just not before the beginning of the world.

You are taking a Scriptural revelation of prophetic promise, and reducing it to mere justification. Which constitutes a taking away from the Word of God.

The scriptures speak of prophetic promise and of justification as well, nothing is being taken away from it by what I have said. Christ was slain in AD 30 not before the world existed.

Christ "covenantally considered slain" before the foundation of the world, makes perfect sense if one comprehends Covenant Theology. Which is the belief that before God created all things, He planned the salvation of His creation, including a particular, foreknown portion of mankind, whom God knew would fall and temporally die in Adam.

Genesis:5-6

"Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart."

"Then" means at that time not "before" it. The Bible does not say the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was going to be great in the earth. Why would God be sorry he had made man if he knew before hand what was going to happen?

There was an Everlasting Covenant made between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to resurrect this portion of (elect) humanity unto eternal life, who were "created in Christ Jesus." (Eph. 2:10)

The question is "when" not "if", to say that all was "before the world was created" is not in scripture.

Nang

 

[Nang]

Originally Posted by Nang:


"And Christ revealed and prophesied His cross work, in the garden of Eden, when He promised He would bruise the head of Satan. (Gen. 3:15)"

DFT_Dave . . .Yes, "in the Garden of Eden after Adam had sinned", but not before the world was created.

Uh . . .how or why would God hide things from those not yet created? Surely you are not going to argue that all things were hidden from the God who created all things?

Yes, I agree, these things have been revealed as you say, just not before the beginning of the world.

Have you ever given thought to the idea that the very reason for the creation was to reveal all the purposes of God? Which, of course, precludes that God had no idea of His purposes, if He so chose to create a universe that would display and reveal His purposes, right?

Christ was slain in AD 30 not before the world existed.

I do not say Christ was slain before the world existed. I say the Godhead covenanted together to consider the Son (Christ) slain, before the foundation (creation) of the world. The fate of the Son of Man was determined, before He came in the flesh.

Genesis:5-6

"Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart."

"Then" means at that time not "before" it. The Bible does not say the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was going to be great in the earth. Why would God be sorry he had made man if he knew before hand what was going to happen?

You are simply denying the omniscience of God, and rejecting His foreknowledge of all His creation.

Do you really think God thought He would create beings that would be sinless, like Himself? Do you really think God could create Gods, who by definition, must be self-existent? Have you really ever thought this all the way through?

God KNEW that anything or anyone He created would be ontologically and morally lesser than Himself; which truth was exhibited in the rebellion of some of His created angels, the limitations of the ministry of the rest of the angels, and the horrific fall of man.

Yet, God according to His attributes of foreknowledge, love, and grace, so purposed to give a people known to Himself, to His Son for an everlasting inheritance, and the Son and His Spirit were willing to covenant to do what was necessary to redeem this particular, created people, to the glory of God.

Nang

 

[DFT_Dave]

No Dave, I'm a bit unorthodox in my time ideology. When I bring it up, I've gotten less than gracious response so I'm not inclined to share too much for the pegging effects and giving it a rest. Instead I'll just say that I do believe sin greatly affects our perception of time and leave it with that.

I understand the OV problem and concern with time constraints, but it isn't one I share at all. Because I've taken flak, I'd gladly carry this conversation to PM, but I'd like to keep it out of thread.

I always wear a "flak jacket" when I come here--incoming! If we don't share and debate our "time ideologies" then we will not know if they are Biblical or not--I mean this in a healthy sense of debate. I guess sin would affect our perception of all of God's Word and it hardly seems to be a good reason not to respond to the questions I asked you, but I think the you have other, more obvious, reasons for not doing so. A Calvinist/determinist has no problems being consistent with God's timelessness, but an Arminian/free will theist is never able to be theologically consistent until he embraces OV, been there, tried that.

 

[DFT_Dave]

Originally Posted by Nang:

I do not say Christ was slain before the world existed. I say the Godhead covenanted together to consider the Son (Christ) slain, before the foundation (creation) of the world. The fate of the Son of Man was determined, before He came in the flesh.

Was the fate of man also determined before he was created?

You are simply denying the omniscience of God, and rejecting His foreknowledge of all His creation.

The Bible simply says that God did not foreknow what would happen as I pointed out in Genesis 6, as long as you don't read anything into it. God of course knew that Adam could sin but not that he would sin that's why the Lamb was slain because of mans sin and rebellion not before the creation of the world. The only way that God could know that Adam would sin before he was created, would be to ordain that he should sin, or in other words, cause him to sin and cause the world to become wicked as well, then it makes sense that the Lamb was slain before the creation of the world. But then how do you explain God's regret, sorrow, anger, and their destruction?

 

[Nang]

DFT_Dave asks:

Was the fate of man also determined before he was created?

Well, yes . . . duh . . . that is the doctrine of predestination! Destiny = fate.

The Bible simply says that God did not foreknow what would happen

Then, God is not God, according to you.

God of course knew that Adam could sin

No, God knew that Adam would sin, for God warned Adam, that in the day he did sin, he would die. (Gen. 2:17)

that's why the Lamb was slain

That's why the "Lamb" (The Son of God) covenanted to be slain in flesh and in time, before there was the creation of flesh and the creation of time.

because of mans sin and rebellion

Right.

not before the creation of the world.

Man did not sin until he was created, but God knew before He founded the world and created men and angels, that they would sin and fall.

The only way that God could know that Adam would sin before he was created, would be to ordain that he should sin,

Yippee! You are getting it!

or in other words, cause him to sin and cause the world to become wicked as well,

Ugh . . . no, all attribution for sin and death is placed by God on Adam. No descendent of Adam will succeed in reversing this truth, and placing the blame for sin on God.

then it makes sense that the Lamb was slain before the creation of the world.

The Lamb was not slain before the creation . . .He (volitionally) covenanted to BE SLAIN for the people created in Him before the creation. This was the contractrual agreement between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That the Son would save those the Father gave Him; created in Him (Eph. 2:10), to be His inheritance, and conversely to share in His inheritance of everlasting glory.

But then how do you explain God's regret, sorrow, anger, and their destruction?

The elect of God, for whom Christ died, are not destroyed.

God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11) left in their sins, outside of His Son.

Nang

 

[Lon]

I always wear a "flak jacket" when I come here--incoming! If we don't share and debate our "time ideologies" then we will not know if they are Biblical or not--I mean this in a healthy sense of debate. I guess sin would affect our perception of all of God's Word and it hardly seems to be a good reason not to respond to the questions I asked you, but I think the you have other, more obvious, reasons for not doing so. A Calvinist/determinist has no problems being consistent with God's timelessness, but an Arminian/free will theist is never able to be theologically consistent until he embraces OV, been there, tried that.

No, I have no trouble telling you, just PM me. This is the kind of idea that is best discussed in camp rather than the opposing views, but I'd share in PM if you desired.

Until then, I have a leaning toward a Calvinist perspective regarding time But again, I believe sin is a huge factor.

 

[DFT_Dave]

DFT_Dave asks:
Was the fate of man also determined before he was created?

Well, yes . . . duh . . . that is the doctrine of predestination! Destiny = fate.

By his fate I mean that it was determined that he would sin as well as perish.

Posted by DFT_Dave
God of course knew that Adam could sin

No, God knew that Adam would sin, for God warned Adam, that in the day he did sin, he would die. (Gen. 2:17)

If God knew that Adam would sin then why did he warn him not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good an evil, "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Posted by DFT_Dave
The only way that God could know that Adam would sin before he was created, would be to ordain that he should sin,

Yippee! You are getting it!

What is the definition of "ordain" if not to make something happen.

Posted by DFT_Dave
or in other words, cause him to sin and cause the world to become wicked as well,

Ugh . . . no, all attribution for sin and death is placed by God on Adam. No descendent of Adam will succeed in reversing this truth, and placing the blame for sin on God.

If God ordains/orders that Adam should sin and if Adam cannot do other wise, and I think that you would agree that Adam can not do other then what he is ordained to do, then how could he be responsible for what God had ordained him to do, which is to sin. Isn't God responsible for what he himself ordains?

Posted by DFT_Dave
But then how do you explain God's regret, sorrow, anger, and their destruction?

The elect of God, for whom Christ died, are not destroyed. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11) left in their sins, outside of His Son.

But the wicked are left in their sins because God did not ordain their salvation, right? If what you say is true then I would say the Bible contradicts itself, wouldn't you?
---DFT_Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

No, I have no trouble telling you, just PM me. This is the kind of idea that is best discussed in camp rather than the opposing views, but I'd share in PM if you desired.

Until then, I have a leaning toward a Calvinist perspective regarding time But again, I believe sin is a huge factor.

OK, but I seem to have some limits there. Perphaps there's another way, I'll get back to you.
--Dave

 

[godrulz]

I found an article for you to read:

http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=238

Some Calvinistic groups or writings are extreme Calvinism and very divisive. They are strident and not to be believed in many areas. I do not know the roots of trinityfoundation.

The stuff in Tabletalk is not just Sproul's and I did not agree with much of it. The other problem is that it was from the 1980s and 90s, so I do not know where he is at now. In fairness, he would also need to respond and clarify things he is being attacked over. It would not be the first time that critics misunderstand or misrepresent a person.

I suppose you do not like Charles Colson either.

 

[Nang]

By his fate I mean that it was determined that he would sin as well as perish.

Yes.

If God knew that Adam would sin then why did he warn him not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good an evil, "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

This was God's command and demonstration of His Holy LAW; predicting that Adam would "surely die" on the day God knew Adam would break God's LAW.

The only way that God could know that Adam would sin before he was created, would be to ordain that he should sin,

No, God ordained Adam would surely die when he did sin. But the sin of disobedience to God's LAW is attributed only to Adam's action.

What is the definition of "ordain" if not to make something happen.

Correct. God ordained that Adam would die because he rebelled and disobeyed the LAW of God.

in other words, cause him to sin and cause the world to become wicked as well,

God is not the cause of Adam sinning. Sin and death is clearly attributed to Adam, alone. (Romans 5:12)

If God ordains/orders that Adam should sin

There is no mention in Holy Scripture that God ordered Adam to sin.

and if Adam cannot do other wise,

Adam knowledgeably and volitionally sinned.

But then how do you explain God's regret, sorrow, anger, and their destruction?

Would you be happier with Sovereign God, if He took glee in the sins of His creatures?

But the wicked are left in their sins because God did not ordain their salvation, right?

No. The wicked suffer death, because that is the wages of their sins. (Romans 6:23)

The only reason any wicked are saved, is purely by the amazing grace of God, who imposed their deserved wages of their sins (death), upon His only begotten Son, in their stead.

Nang

 

[Lighthouse]

I trust more in a God who can perform His will in spite of my idiocy, than one who has to know of my idiocy, or ordain it, beforehand, in order to be certain His will is done.

 

[elected4ever]

I trust more in a God who can perform His will in spite of my idiocy, than one who has to know of my idiocy, or ordain it, beforehand, in order to be certain His will is done.

Will , I know that god knew me before I was saved. He knew that I was an idiot then and he knew that I would remaine an idiot but because I repented He saved me any way. God has walked through my hell with me and never left me. He will never leave me or forsake me. If that isn't love, pray tell, what is?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

On a side note this thread recently eclipsed 70,000 page views! :up:

 

[DFT_Dave]

Posted by DFT_Dave
By his fate I mean that it was determined that he (Adam) would sin as well as perish.

Posted by Nang
Yes.

Posted by DFT_Dave
The only way that God could know that Adam would sin before he was created, would be to ordain that he should sin,

Posted by Nang
No, God ordained Adam would surely die when he did sin. But the sin of disobedience to God's LAW is attributed only to Adam's action.

Do you see how you have contradicted yourself?

You said "yes" when I said that Adams fate was that it was determined by God that he would sin, and then you said "no" when I said that God had odained that Adam should sin. To "determine" or "ordain" means the same thing.

It's another contradiction to say that Adam is responsible for his sin even though it was ordained, determined, or by fate.

 

[yankeedoodled]

Adam & Eve practiced freedom of Choice and mankind has been complaining about the cost of such ever since !

 

[Lon]

Posted by DFT_Dave
By his fate I mean that it was determined that he (Adam) would sin as well as perish.

Posted by Nang
Yes.

Posted by DFT_Dave
The only way that God could know that Adam would sin before he was created, would be to ordain that he should sin,

Posted by Nang
No, God ordained Adam would surely die when he did sin. But the sin of disobedience to God's LAW is attributed only to Adam's action.

Do you see how you have contradicted yourself?

You said "yes" when I said that Adams fate was that it was determined by God that he would sin, and then you said "no" when I said that God had odained that Adam should sin. To "determine" or "ordain" means the same thing.

It's another contradiction to say that Adam is responsible for his sin even though it was ordained, determined, or by fate.

Can we discuss what is lost and what is gained from each perspective?

OV would state God could not know, specifically by His own volition because He has the power to know. If I'm understanding correctly.

A nonOV position would state that God must know for He has Foreknowledge (some in differing perspectives would say exhaustive). Furthermore, He could not be competent if there were too many contingencies (this or a variance is leveled often toward the OV position).

So one side suggests an impossibility and claim that nonOV has God in a tyrannical position. The other, that God is much smaller and unable.

What I'd like to hear is exactly what is lost and what is gained in the respective viewpoints.

Here are a few leading questions but expound anything that is pertinent.

-If God does not know future exhaustively, how much does He know? Is it limited to determinism?

-If God made Adam with a faulty sin valve, did He know about it? Was it faulty? How is God impinged or expunged?

-What was necessary for man to have choice? What factor had to be part of Adam's makeup for this to work?

-How is God's omnicompetence accomplished if He does not know outcomes?

-How do you handle difficult passages like Revelation with interaction if the future is impossible to travel to? If it was not future, is it merely predictive or absolute?
How can you know?

-God promises in glory, that all tears and sorrow will be eliminated. We understand that sin will be erradicated also. How is this accomplished if we really do have freewill? Do we lose it at Heaven's doorstep?

I could post more, but I just want to get to a treatise on the OV that is a bit more cogent than just a mere thread post if possible.

In Him

Lon