Posted by DFT_Dave
Maybe you don't build your theology on Greek philosophy but Augustine did by his own confession.
Posted by Lonster
Certiainly I agree, there definitely was influence of greek philosophy upon him, but I use scripture to back up claims of who God is. I do not believe He is unmoved, but that He is perfect. Our change is from lessers to glory, His is responsive change that entails His perfect love and care. This should have an OV thread btw, there is great room here for misinterpretation from those looking in, and in fact, the debate between Enyart and Cook pointed to this. There is a need to define 'unmoved mover.' I've been with you guys long enough to know we aren't necessarily in disagreement, but because it is a change in a doctrinal stance, it needs a good address.
An understanding of what is meant by "Unmoved Mover" must come from Aristotle. He originated it, he said, "There is something that is always moving the things that are moved...There is something that is always being moved...(by) something that moves things without being moved."
Posted by DFT_Dave
Exodus 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people." To repent is a change of mind and action.
Posted by Lonster
I agree with this, it is scriptural, but.... there are some logic problems we should discuss. Because God is perfect there is no 'need' to change. His change therefore must be seen as necessary for 'us.' I am not perfect so to even appreciate the sense of a sentence like this I'm scrambling. If you make a perfect anything, you could change it (like the colors, or wooden panels. It wouldn't necessarily make it less perfect, but what we do know is that from Everlasting to Everlasting God is the same Psa 90:2; Psa 89:34; and in Kings we also recon that Something in His very nature does not change. Therefore, there must need be a cogent theology that accounts for what we see. To simply say "God changes" is just as wrong to simply say "God never changes." There is great need to build a cogent doctrine.
That's why I said that God's character does not change. He always has been and always will be love, light, and justice, etc.. But the Bible clearly tells us that God can change his mind, make plans, and alter them.
Any kind of change for Aristotle is an imperfection. He defined four kinds of change that he saw in nature. "Change of what a thing is is simple coming-to-be and perishing; change of quantity is growth and diminution; change of affection is alteration; change of place is motion." He also said everything in nature "changes from being potentially to being in actuality; a thing changes, for instance, from being potentially white to being actually white."
In reference to God Aristotle said, "There is something that moves things while being itself immovable and existing in actuality (without any potential for change), it is not possible in any way for that thing to be in any state other that in which it is."
Posted by DFT_Dave
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...And the word became flesh and dwelt among us." This is greatest change of all. The Word becoming flesh not only speaks of change but also time and movement.
Posted by Lonster
Yes, but by the very act there is a transcendence of time at the incarnation. Once I was told by OV in here that when Joshua's day of battle extened, it was not the suspension of time, but it definitely was a time change. Whether by stopping all the universe, or by some other means, the concept of time was suspended. This gets very difficult in which to see clearly, but this moment in O.T. history transcends our understandings. Somehow that particular day had more hours involved with it. The pattern of perception of time was disrupted. All this to say, that God's time is different from ours (a day as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day).
It is very important that we define what we mean by time. Time is a characteristic of anything that exists and is active. Any kind of movement is a change of some type and incorporates the essence of time in three ways: 1. before and after; 2. past, present, and future; 3. duration. Time does not exist in itself as something material or as an invisible form of energy. The measuring of time is relative because it can be done in many ways in different places.
Einstein "If we assume that all matter would disappear from the world, then before relativity, one believed that space and time would continue existing in an empty world. But according to the theory of relativity, if matter and its motion disappeared, there would no longer be any space or time."
Time exists in God because he is active in the world he has created--Revealed Theology. We know that God existed 'before" he created the world and so we can also say that the creation of the world is in his "past". Before the creation of the world there was "movement" within the Trinity. Love and communication are forms of movement. God endures forever, time for God is unlimited, he had no beginning and he will have no end.
Posted by Lonster
This is a pretty good start on this discussion. It was like I was reading your mind. At this point, it'd be awesome to start a thread concerning just this, because clarity is needed. If you'd like to move this post over to a new place along with your's and any other pertinent comments, I believe this would serve as a great thread all on it's own.
To understand the essentials of Greek philosophy, as I have outlined it, is essential in an understanding of what OV is and why it is so important. Augustine is one of many theologians who have attempted to synthesis philosophy with revelation and produced a theology of contradictions and confusion. Biblical terms and concepts must be defined and understood within their own context and not a Platonic one.
The key to understanding OV is not primarily in a concept of eternal time or a view of free will and foreknowledge, but in our understanding of God. God has "infinite potentiality". He has unlimited potential and freedom of thought and action in an eternity of unlimited time. God does not do everything all at once nor does he do anything carelessly.
If we can continue along this way, we can focus on key definitions, compare scripture with philosophy and see "if" and "how" theologians have combined them, and see if we are doing the same or not.
