elected4ever
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Haven't you told me on numerous occasions that being born again is a metaphor? I rest my case.
ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1
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elected4ever
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You actually watch that garbage?Has anybody seen the Denzel Washington movie 'Deja Vu'? My wife wanted to rent it. Minority Report, Back to the Future, etc. always strained my brain with their time warp issues. Deja Vu is refutable by Open Theism and makes no sense, except to the timeless/eternal now people. The movie is incoherent and impossible logically.
The movie is a good argument for Open Theism and against other views on time.
Perhaps the timeless people could explain how 500 people could get blown up, yet it was possible to go back 4 days, change the past, and have the same 500 people alive in a parallel stream that negated their actual deaths?!
Oops. Is it too late for a spoiler alert?
Jesus used METAPHORS about Himself (I am Door, Bread, etc.). This does not mean that He was denying His own reality.
"Born again" or 'This is my body and blood' are metaphors that convey spiritual truth. We do not interpret born again as a wooden literalism, nor do we say that Jesus has a door knob for a belly button. BA conveys the reality of being born from above, born anew, regenerated by the Spirit, made alive in Christ, made a new creature, etc.
Recognizing biblical figures of speech (as in any literature...and there are many in the Bible...Jesus liked to use them) is not tantamount to denying spiritual truth and reality.
Is that the best example of me denying the Spirit? With yourself, and millions of other Christians, I affirm the new birth/regeneration and consider myself born again by the Spirit of God. It is one expression (only used 3x in Scripture, so do not think it is the only truth about salvation) among several that convey what salvation is. My point is that it is analagous, not identical, to physical birth. It does not literally mean we go into the womb and come out again (if it is not a metaphor, then this is how we should interpret it...born again...what else would it mean...Nicodemus made this mistake and Jesus corrected him with understanding, not denying the metaphorical use of the phrase). Metaphors represent the reality, but without using wooden language.
Metaphors are used about God also. This does not mean God is not real or that we deny God because we rightly interpret inspired figures of speech.
Try taking a course in special hermeneutics so you will be able to properly discern and interpret figures of speech.
I did not know what it was about. I read much and rarely watch TV or movies. The movie was fairly clean. My wife wanted to see it. Do you always know what is garbage or not? My point is that your view on time/eternity could try to make sense of it. My view shows why it is impossible and incoherent.
patman
Active member
I don't think much of your arguments ether come to think of it. I hardly think about them at all.
I don't strive with my maker, that is unless you are my maker then i strive a lot.
Hay, tell me something Patman, what have I calmed for myself that is not true with all God's children? The only difference is I know who i am in Christ and 90 percent of the people on this board do not know who they are in Christ. I suppose that would include you.
Your just jealous that i gave my death to Christ and he gave me His life, and it would seem that you are more comfortable remaining in your death and keeping it as your very own even though you have received salvation (life from the dead) as i have.
I don't guess it makes you feel very religious in the flesh when the flesh can add nothing and is left out. After all the flesh has to do something to justify its existence doesn't it.:sigh:
It is very interesting that your answer is aimed at making yourself look better. It is heartbreaking that you claim to be saved and so passionate about the "elected" part that you would utterly deny the first chapter of the Book we came to Christ through. If you can't trust Genesis, how can I trust you.
It is also rather sad that you do not care about the rebuke. You just mock the person who gives it to you.
E4E, it is christians like you who are confused by scripture yet preach it anyway who have driven so many away from Christ. I would rather see someone deny christ based on sound understanding than the half understanding you know... even that understanding is shown now to be bias.
And your best shot as a rebuttal was to question how saved I feel? Or how secure I am in God?
:doh: PAAAAHHHH, that's just crazy.
Since you can't spell, I will also assume you do not understand what a metaphor is and is not in relation to truth/reality.
elected4ever
New member
Without the new birth there is no Holy Spirit within us. Denying the actual spiritual birth by God's seed is denying the Holy Spirit. We cannot be a new creation without it. We cannot have the Spirit of Christ without it. It is a literal accomplishment within us by God and to say it never happened and is only a metaphor is like saying that salvation is a metaphor. You deny the h\Holy Spirit. Plain and Simple.
elected4ever
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Tix tix
I do not deny the new birth, the Holy Spirit within us, spiritual birth by God's seed, being a new creation, the Spirit of Christ in us, the hope of glory. This has happened for believers who are regenerated by the indwelling Spirit of God. Saying the phrase 'born again' is one of many metaphors describing what salvation really is is NOT a denial of the Spirit and salvation.
As I said, just because Jesus used a metaphor that He is Bread does not mean He is a loaf or that He does not exist in reality as the Lord Jesus because a metaphor is used about Him.
Will someone help e4e with basic English and basic Bible interpretation. My patience is worn thin.
I'm tellin' ya; she isn't here to debate. She's here because she discovered that I post here and she wants to harass me because I called her husband stupid on another discussion forum about a year ago. Neither she's nor her husband would know a debate if one walked up, introduced itself and then slapped them in the face. Beg and plead all you like, she will not make an argument. She will proclaim anything and everything she disagrees with to be false teaching and heresy and she will insist that anyone and everyone who thinks she's a complete nut case is lost and going to hell in a hand basket, but she will never make a bona-fide argument, or at least I've never once seen her do so on either this forum or any other.
Resting in Him,
Clete
On the contrary Lonster. Think this through again. It isn't Omnipotence that causes the trouble.
Why would a God need to be competent at all, say for example in the area of personal relationships (i.e. working with His allies and manipulating His enemies), in a world where He has predestined every detail of every event everywhere at all times? How competent of a chess player would you really need to be if you decided what the rules were, you decided when and where your opponent would move and you decided what the definition of victory was? The God of Calvinism isn't competent He's just a control freak.
And isn't that what we experience in our own lives? Have you ever met anyone who just had to control everything and everyone in their lives? Is it our experience that such people are competent or isn't it true that such people are the control freaks they are precisely because they are insecure in their ability to deal with life as it comes? If God really is controlling everything that happens all around us all the time then why don't we consider the control freaks in our lives to be godly people who are wise and worthy of emulation? Is it not the person who is unflappable and seemingly invincible in his dealings with other people no matter what comes up that we admire and intuitively understand as being smarter and more competent? Why would such be true of us and the opposite be true of God? Are we not made in God's image? Is wisdom somehow different for God than it is for us? It can't be, right?! God's character forms the very definition of not only wisdom and righteousness but competence as well and we know not only from God's word but intuitively as well what those things mean for He has written such things on our hearts.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Philetus
New member
Has anybody seen the Denzel Washington movie 'Deja Vu'? My wife wanted to rent it. Minority Report, Back to the Future, etc. always strained my brain with their time warp issues. Deja Vu is refutable by Open Theism and makes no sense, except to the timeless/eternal now people. The movie is incoherent and impossible logically.
The movie is a good argument for Open Theism and against other views on time.
Perhaps the timeless people could explain how 500 people could get blown up, yet it was possible to go back 4 days, change the past, and have the same 500 people alive in a parallel stream that negated their actual deaths?!
Oops. Is it too late for a spoiler alert?
I saw it. At best it was somewhat entertaining. The scene where Washington was introduced to the computer program that allowed them to observe the past only once exactly four days, X hours, and x seconds ago was telling. Washington's questions: "Is she alive? Is she alive right now? Can she hear us? Does she know we are watching her?" And then his throwing a pen or pointing a laser beam into the screen and bringing down the program, was the point at which I too, had an 'Ah, Ha!' OV moment.
The most bazaar part was that Washington (and all these present observers of the past) were seeing the affects that his future (not yet) actions were having on the past. That was the biggest phooey in the movie for me. Well, that and Washington's comment after making his little trip back in time, as he stood looking at himself (his other self), "Nothing changed."
Later, when I was having coffee with my friend The Calvinists, he did in fact, bring up the movie. I let him talk without letting on like I saw the movie. He used it to substantiate his view on God being able to see the future. His take was a deja vu syntheses of Left Behind and Back to the Future on acid. (People get their theologies from the strangest places.) When I asked, why weren't they able to see and affect the future like they could the past, he responded, "That's not what the movie was about." "Oh", was my only response. "Besides," he continued, "given time they will." That's when I had an Uh,huh,:doh: OV moment.
I guess fiction is stranger that truth, for some. I wonder if in some future virtual reality forum on TOL they won't be discussing Hollywood's influence on Theology like we talk about the Greeks. Oh, well. God knows.
Philetus
New member
Well said my man, Clete.
Omni-competent vs. control freak
Even knowing your opponents every future move doesn’t require the competence to negotiate relationships with significant others who have a say-so in their choices and actions. Being Omni-competent doesn’t remove all the risks. They could just quit the game. Maybe that is why God allows us to win a game now and then. But, beating God at his own game isn’t really winning; is it?
E4E is going to have a field day with that one.:shut:
Omni-competent vs. control freak
Even knowing your opponents every future move doesn’t require the competence to negotiate relationships with significant others who have a say-so in their choices and actions. Being Omni-competent doesn’t remove all the risks. They could just quit the game. Maybe that is why God allows us to win a game now and then. But, beating God at his own game isn’t really winning; is it?
E4E is going to have a field day with that one.:shut:
elected4ever
New member
The new birth is not the same as saying, I am the door or I am the vine or I am the gate Those are the analogies. Jesus said, "You must be born again." An event that must occur in the life of the believer. I get tired of your non belief. Your denial of the work god accomplishes in the lives of Children. I ran out of patients with you a long time ago.
Philetus
New member
3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." 4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
Ok, Jesus replied, lets try this another way, Use the door, Nick.
Ok, Jesus replied, lets try this another way, Use the door, Nick.
elected4ever
New member
God is not a gambler, Philetus. nether does He need a course in risk management. God is not the one taking risk. That be us.:doh:
Philetus
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What are the odds?
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