ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Bob Hill]

Open Theism, or whatever it may be called, is the view about God that I believe.

This view is about the God of the Bible, and His ability to have feelings, passion, remorse, anger, expectations, sorrow, etc.

This theology is based strictly on the Bible’s statements about our glorious God.

It is the biblical theology that shows that God gave man enough freedom to believe God when God said he may be saved by believing in Jesus Christ as his Savior because He died for him.

Open Theism also believes God has the ability to change His mind or repent about something He said He would do. He usually does this when man has done something to cause God to either repent from harm that He said He would do, or repent from something good that He said He would for man, but because man sinned, He now says He will not do it.

It is also the answer to the Calvinistic view that God predetermines everything that has happened and will happen. We have much material on this subject on my biblicalanswers.com site.

I learned about this position a little over 40 years ago. At that time, I knew of no one who believed it. That has dramatically changed in the last 20 years.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

There is a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks. The 70th week is the future Great Tribulation with the rise of the Antichrist, Armageddon, and the Second Coming of Christ. Rev. 6-19 covers the chronology of these future 7 years.

Philetus: There are principles by way of applicaton in Revelation for all believers of all generations, but the primary interpretation is eschatological. Christ will triumph in the end is great hope for those who are persecuted, etc.

Right on, G'rulz

E4e - the 70th week of Daniel is a week of years. 7 years. Where do you get 49?

 

[elected4ever]

Right on, G'rulz

E4e - the 70th week of Daniel is a week of years. 7 years. Where do you get 49?

It is one complete cycle of Jubilee. Seven sevens.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

It is one complete cycle of Jubilee. Seven sevens.

Please explain to us how the 70th week can be 49 years while the previous
69 weeks were 7 years each. Better yet, show us from scripture.

thanks

 

[patman]

Right on, G'rulz

E4e - the 70th week of Daniel is a week of years. 7 years. Where do you get 49?

must be that "new math"

 

[elected4ever]

Please explain to us how the 70th week can be 49 years while the previous
69 weeks were 7 years each. Better yet, show us from scripture.

thanks

Reread post 5838

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Reread post 5838

Did you not read the rest of Daniel? Chapters 1-8? 10-11?
the "prince of the covenant" is obviously an evil character, not Christ.

 

[elected4ever]

Did you not read the rest of Daniel? Chapters 1-8? 10-11?
the "prince of the covenant" is obviously an evil character, not Christ.

The passage in Daniel 9 has as its object the Messiah. The prince of the people is but an incidental character in this passage. This is about the messiah and what he will accomplish.

 

[Lon]

My work partner is German. He will tell me for free, but to save time, here is $1. What does it mean?

"Yes true, Thanks friend."

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

The passage in Daniel 9 has as its object the Messiah. The prince of the people is but an incidental character in this passage. This is about the messiah and what he will accomplish.

So, the Messiah will perform the abomination of desolation and not
the king of fierce countenance? Hmm.

 

[elected4ever]

So, the Messiah will perform the abomination of desolation and not
the king of fierce countenance? Hmm.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.The abomination that causes Israels desolation is the their rejection of the Messiah Israel brought on there own desolation.

The principle--------Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

 

[Philetus]

That's an outstanding question!

I'd love to hear how anyone would defend such a belief. By my understanding there are about six "days" (i.e. years) left in Daniels 70th week of years. That's presuming that Israel's prophesied program was cut off approximately one year after God "firtilized" the fig tree (i.e. Israel) with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. (Luke 13:6-9)

Resting in Him,
Clete

My friend,

What needs defending is a 180 year old reading of apocalyptic genre that leads to all sorts of craziness, not the least of which is a ubiquitous blueprint model and timetable for the second coming. It concerns me greatly that Open Theists who have so decisively addressed the hijacking of the church centuries ago by philosophical intrusion turning the person of God into an ‘immutable thing’ are now clinging to a view that grants John a detailed look at what is otherwise claimed not even God sees; a non-existent future, thereby endorsing a derailment of the church from its mission in the world today.

The controlling element in the Revelation is not a planet of ‘dead men walking,’ but that of a ‘slain lamb standing’. His agenda is not revenge and retaliation but redemption. Revelation shows us that war is NOT the way to deal with terrorism and injustice – there is ONE who pleas the case of the oppressed and marginalized in the court of the Most High. There is no escape clause. Even if living for the Kingdom results in our death God will not abandon His people. It is not about rapture and revenge. It is about faithfulness and resurrection!

It seems only those (North American Christians for the most part?) who live in relative ease and the luxury of consuming 80% of the earth’s resources and fight their wars ‘there’ rather than ‘here’ are eager to abandon this world and their neighbors who are loved by God as well. The message of promises and warnings to the 7 churches seems especially appropriate … now ... don't you think?

I find it amazing that strong adherents of Open Theism are so reluctant to follow their own counsel and chase their view of the future to its logical conclusions. "We most certainly have our work cut out for us."

I owe much to you and am grateful beyond words. But at this point, I have to strongly disagree with the dispensationalist position and where it leads. The argument doesn't lie in a debate of the details that your view purports; the contention is with its foundational understanding of how to read scripture. Just as there are two motifs in scripture that help us understand both God’s dynamic nature and His steadfast faithfulness, there exists more than one way of saying the same thing: flat out and encrypted. They do not contradict but rather compliment each other.

The Lion is resting at the side of the Lamb as well,
Philetus

 

[Philetus]

How many 'trees' are there now that the Gentiles have been 'grafted' in and 'fertilized'?

How many vines? How many peoples of God?

Same roots; new branches, maybe?

inquiring minds want to know
:banana:

Maybe a more organic approach to understanding history (rather than a static/systemic view) would compliment an open view of the future. The Bible is full of such imagery. Or would that be too hard for us to control?

Maybe we could fertilize it and see if it bears fruit ….

 

[Philetus]

There is a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks. The 70th week is the future Great Tribulation with the rise of the Antichrist, Armageddon, and the Second Coming of Christ. Rev. 6-19 covers the chronology of these future 7 years.

Philetus: There are principles by way of applicaton in Revelation for all believers of all generations, but the primary interpretation is eschatological. Christ will triumph in the end is great hope for those who are persecuted, etc.

Is it a gap in history where contingencies are suspended or a pause in the story to worship and Glorify the Lamb? :chuckle:

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.The abomination that causes Israels desolation is the their rejection of the Messiah Israel brought on there own desolation.

The principle--------Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

If you'd read the rest of Daniel you would understand that an evil king will
defile the temple. This is the abomination that makes it desolate.

 

[elected4ever]

If you'd read the rest of Daniel you would understand that an evil king will
defile the temple. This is the abomination that makes it desolate.

You don't know much history do you?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

You don't know much history do you?

Not much. But, I know enough Bible to know that the abomination of desolation
spoken of by Daniel the prophet has not taken place yet.

For one thing, it takes place in the middle of the 70th week. And, the 70th
has not even started (regardless of your theories about the 49 years, etc.

 

[elected4ever]

Not much. But, I know enough Bible to know that the abomination of desolation
spoken of by Daniel the prophet has not taken place yet.

For one thing, it takes place in the middle of the 70th week. And, the 70th
has not even started (regardless of your theories about the 49 years, etc.

It does not say middle. It says midst. That is like saying sometime between the beginning and the ending of the week. It could be in the middle but not necessarily so.

It is not the abomination of desolation but the abomination that "causes" the desolation. In other words Israel did something that caused their own demise.

 

[Lon]

It does not say middle. It says midst. That is like saying sometime between the beginning and the ending of the week. It could be in the middle but not necessarily so.

It is not the abomination of desolation but the abomination that "causes" the desolation. In other words Israel did something that caused their own demise.

There are quite a few interpretations of when and if this took place.

One interpretation is that it happened as described in Maccabeas when a pig was offered on the altar.

Another, when the first temple was destroyed.

Another interpretation was when Christ was killed ("Destroy this temple and it will be raised again in 3 days")

And yet another is that we are still within the time frame either as a pause or figuratively.

 

[elected4ever]

There are quite a few interpretations of when and if this took place.

One interpretation is that it happened as described in Maccabeas when a pig was offered on the altar.

Another, when the first temple was destroyed.

Another interpretation was when Christ was killed ("Destroy this temple and it will be raised again in 3 days")

And yet another is that we are still within the time frame either as a pause or figuratively.

We are way off base here. This needs to be a separate tread.