Philetus
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Agreed. But, I'm not convinced that Belteshazzar's vision had anything to do with a now future rising of the nation state of Israel. :sigh:
ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1
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Agreed. But, I'm not convinced that Belteshazzar's vision had anything to do with a now future rising of the nation state of Israel. :sigh:
Philetus
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And many examples of all that having already taken place ... often. So what's the point?
VanhoozerRocks
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Great job Philetus. I would agree with your overall distinction. The jargon-esque term that designates Revelation as this sort of document is that of "theopoetic". This views Revelation as a visionary theological and poetic representation of the spiritual environment within which the Church perennialy finds itself living and struggling. The book presents a theo-ethical rhetoric which seemingly provoke a sort of 'imaginative participation' within the community that John envisions. Revelation's visions are written for particular churchs in the 1st century, but they cannot be read-off as one-to-one signifiers of particular persons and events: at the very least their significance is not exhausted by such a reading. These visions are (I think) meant to unmask the illusory power of the "realistic" politics/polity and disclose God's truth about human historical experience. That being it is through/in/by the Lamb that was slaughtered that true power and wisdom is manifested (ala. theology of the cross).
So, in Revelation we have an elaborate imaginative vision for the church as an alternate community pitted in conflict with the powers that be.
So, in Revelation we have an elaborate imaginative vision for the church as an alternate community pitted in conflict with the powers that be.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Israel is still scattered today. There are more Jews in America than in the land
over there. I guess my point is that God isn't dealing with them as a nation
today. When the time comes, he will supernaturally gather them:
Isa 54:6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
Isa 54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
Isa 54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
Philetus
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Yea, :thumb: that's what I was saying, I just said it so much more betterer. :crackup:
I owe a great deal to E. Peterson for his book on Revelation: Reversed Thunder. John as a pastor first, and as a prophet/poet spoke a clear word (albeit encrypted) to comfort and encourage his people in the face of great opposition/tribulation.
theopoetic: I love that word. Got reference?
Philetus
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We aren’t that far apart. However, in the context of this conversation I would just be overtly conscious of buying into your futuristic, supernatural ingathering as anything other than the return of Christ and the ingathering of all God's people, Jews and Gentiles as the one and same People of God in Christ.:surf:
VanhoozerRocks
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Yeah, its drawing from a mixture of wells. However, it primarily comes from the works of Paul Minear, Elisabeth Shussler Fiorenza, and Widler, and Richard Hays. It primarily comes from Wilder though. And yes, I love it too, its great when Revelation is not just the Scriptural version of the Left Behind series. And it also helps you sound a lot smarter then you are when you can steal other people's cool words. :crackup:
elected4ever
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Daniel's 70 weeks have been fullfiled. That is not a coming event.
Philetus
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Ohmygosh! The end IS near. I agree 100% with an E4E post.:crackup:
E, there are lessons to be learned from Daniel's faithfulness. Everybody’s got a Babylon.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
End of what? When was the 70th week fulfilled?
Philetus
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Thanks for the hints. I'll take a closer look at Minear and Wilder, etc.. I guess that puts us in the minority camp of the 'Right Behind' group. For the past ten years I've been reading Revelation as a discipleship manual trying to stay right behind Jesus and not get ahead of him. With my work in the margins and on the edge it is refreshing, and gives great hope to the poor 'outsiders' who have been marginalized even by Christendom.
Philetus
New member
Everything as we know it on TOL.
Last month, maybe? Or when the real Baloneyians fell? :yawn: Who cares? **IT happens.
The point is, I don't need to go finding specific details in today's newspapers to learn from Daniel's experience of God's faithfulness and ability to accomplish His intentions for His people.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Everything as we know it on TOL.
Last month, maybe? Or when the real Baloneyians fell? :yawn: Who cares? **IT happens.
The point is, I don't need to go finding specific details in today's newspapers to learn from Daniel's experience of God's faithfulness and ability to accomplish His intentions for His people.
You won't find anything in today's papers in fulfillment of Daniel's 70th week,
that's for sure.
That's an outstanding question!
I'd love to hear how anyone would defend such a belief. By my understanding there are about six "days" (i.e. years) left in Daniels 70th week of years. That's presuming that Israel's prophesied program was cut off approximately one year after God "firtilized" the fig tree (i.e. Israel) with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. (Luke 13:6-9)
Resting in Him,
Clete
Lon
Well-known member
I have to disagree with you both on contextual interpretation and meanings. I understand the distinction and even some in the SV camp hold to this, but the book is progressive and certainly there are one-time accounts there that will have to take place. The end of the book and all things is a series of events that do not apply to all perennials.
Lon
Well-known member
I have to disagree with you both on contextual interpretation and meanings. I understand the distinction and even some in the SV camp hold to this, but the book is progressive and certainly there are one-time accounts there that will have to take place. So while I do see poetic application,the end of the book and all things is a series of events that do not apply to all perennials.
There is a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks. The 70th week is the future Great Tribulation with the rise of the Antichrist, Armageddon, and the Second Coming of Christ. Rev. 6-19 covers the chronology of these future 7 years.
Philetus: There are principles by way of applicaton in Revelation for all believers of all generations, but the primary interpretation is eschatological. Christ will triumph in the end is great hope for those who are persecuted, etc.
elected4ever
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Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Total amount of time to be consumed, Not nececeraly consecutively or cronologicly but time as dictated by events.
1. The clock starts ticking with this event. From the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: or 69 weeks of years. This says nothing of the temple but of Jerusalem. From the decree to build Jerusalem to the Messiah was 483 years. First 69 weeks done.
2. The 2 big events of the after the 69 weeks
A. After the 69 weeks are completed the Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself. Jesus was crucified and the Jews rejected the Messiah. The messiah was effectively cut off from national Israel.
B. The people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Events A and B happen with out regard to any time except they happen after the 69 weeks are complete.
That 70eth week
He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week. That is one day = 7 years. There are 7 days so 7x7 = 49 years. This is a 49 year time span. Not just seven years total. The Messiah is the subject of this prophecy. Not the prince of the people that shall come. Within this time frame three things will occur.
A. The messiah will confirm the covenant.
B. Within the time frame the sacrifice and offerings will cease.
C. That which has been determined will be pored out on Israel until the end of the war.
When Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed this prophecy was fulfilled in its entirety and the mission of the prophecy was realized.
1. The transgression was finished.
2. An end of sins was completed.
3. Reconciliation for iniquity was made.
4. Everlasting righteousness was brought in.
5. This vision and prophecy were sealed.
6. The most Holy has been anointed King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Lon
Well-known member
My work partner is German. He will tell me for free, but to save time, here is $1. What does it mean?
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