ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1
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ChristisKing
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Clete said:
Are you kidding me? You can't even address a single verse, how in the world are you gonna handle an entire chapter. :yawn:
ChristisKing
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Clete said:
The Calvinist "crusher" goeth! :chuckle:
lee_merrill
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Hi everyone,
And why do Open Theists somehow never bring any preconceived ideas to the text? Some folks are not subject to human frailties?
And I would be glad to participate in a debate with Clete on Romans 9, with CiK or any and all, the more the merrier...
Blessings,
Lee
Which ones, may I ask? That say this explicitly, I mean.godrulz said:
Perhaps "other verses" means you had specific verses in reply in mind, though? Why is that not proof-texting?
And why do Open Theists somehow never bring any preconceived ideas to the text? Some folks are not subject to human frailties?
I'm not sure what you mean here, though. Clearly the answer to Paul's question is "no one!" not even one individual, for "who" is singular.
And I would be glad to participate in a debate with Clete on Romans 9, with CiK or any and all, the more the merrier...
Blessings,
Lee
Lk. 7:30 (rejected God's purposes for them)
Lk. 13:34 ('not willing')
Spirit is quenched and grieved.
Acts 17 Not everyone received the grace of God in the Gospel. Hell is a testament to man's ability to resist God's will for us (2 Peter 3:9).
Satan and evil men are in opposition to God's will and purposes. This is why He sends judgment and wars against His enemies.
The Gospels reveal a warfare model, not a blueprint model (everything is God's will). Your theodicy (problem of evil) is lacking in truth and clarity.
Lk. 13:34 ('not willing')
Spirit is quenched and grieved.
Acts 17 Not everyone received the grace of God in the Gospel. Hell is a testament to man's ability to resist God's will for us (2 Peter 3:9).
Satan and evil men are in opposition to God's will and purposes. This is why He sends judgment and wars against His enemies.
The Gospels reveal a warfare model, not a blueprint model (everything is God's will). Your theodicy (problem of evil) is lacking in truth and clarity.
ChristisKing
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godrulz said:
Let's see now......what is it that you keep telling us to do :think: .....oh yeah, here it is "Quit proof texting your preconceived ideas." :readthis:
All this verse is saying is that the common people accepted God's condemnation of them but that the wise and prudent "Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves."
LUK 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
LUK 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
Christ then explains why:
LUK 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
The Lord of heaven and earth had hid it from them! This is an excellent "proof text" supporting the biblical doctrine of double predestination! :chuckle:
godrulz said:
"Quit proof texting your preconceived ideas." :readthis:
LUK 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Christ revealed why "they would not":
JOH 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
JOH 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
JOH 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
They would not because they were born blind sinners and the Father did not give them belief and repentance.
godrulz said:
ACT 17:4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.
ACT 17:5 But the Jews which believed not,
Now what have we learned as to why the Gentiles believed and the Jews did not... :think:
Wait, I know :idea:
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." (ACT 13:48)
ROM 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them:
ROM 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
ROM 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
ROM 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Not sure why you quote 2PE 3:9; "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." But again the "us" Peter is referring to is Peter and all those whom he is writing the letter to: "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, (1PE 1:1-2).
godrulz said:
That's right, He leaves them in their sins but on others He exercises mercy and that's why He sent Jesus Christ and the Apostles.
ROM 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
ROM 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
godrulz said:
Your right it is a warfare model, Jesus Christ and His seed against Satan and his seed:
GEN 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
But you're wrong, God does control everything:
ISA 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
ISA 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
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There is a judicial blinding when men harden their own hearts. Double predestination was considered a horrific doctrine by Calvin. He believed it despite it contradicting God's self-revelation of love, justice, and holiness.
It is apparent that you interpret verses through the filter of Calvinism. You also link unrelated contexts to support deductive reasoning.
Realistically, we would have to carefully exegete all the relevant verses in context. This would take more than a brief post. We have attempted this on other threads.
Apparently, we find each other's assumptions weak and unconvincing. I understand where you are coming from, but do not believe it is consistent will all the biblical evidence.
Transferring the responsibility for heinous evil from Satan and man to God ends the credibility of Calvinism. Hyper-sovereignty is not the only 'truth' in Scripture. Love and holiness are talked about much more than a misconception of sovereignty.
BTW, there is a difference between moral evil (contrary to God's holiness and love) and KJV 'evil' referring to natural evil sent in judgment. Sloppy exegesis, bro.
It is apparent that you interpret verses through the filter of Calvinism. You also link unrelated contexts to support deductive reasoning.
Realistically, we would have to carefully exegete all the relevant verses in context. This would take more than a brief post. We have attempted this on other threads.
Apparently, we find each other's assumptions weak and unconvincing. I understand where you are coming from, but do not believe it is consistent will all the biblical evidence.
Transferring the responsibility for heinous evil from Satan and man to God ends the credibility of Calvinism. Hyper-sovereignty is not the only 'truth' in Scripture. Love and holiness are talked about much more than a misconception of sovereignty.
BTW, there is a difference between moral evil (contrary to God's holiness and love) and KJV 'evil' referring to natural evil sent in judgment. Sloppy exegesis, bro.
ChristisKing
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godrulz said:
You mean like how God judicially blinded Paul because he so hardened his heart that he was killing Christians?!?
godrulz said:
It was also a horrific docrtrine to Paul, but he like Calvin, believed it despite it contradicting their natural, sinful, fleshly nature and puny reason.
As a result Paul wrote, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit:
ROM 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
ROM 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
ROM 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
godrulz said:
No it is you who has the filter on and you who are not letting Scripture interpret Scripture.
godrulz said:
I also understand where you are coming from. I was converted in an Arminian church and for 20 years was a confused member in the inconsistent and unbiblical Arminian mish-mash doctrines of freewill that are consistent with Open Theism (although Open Theism balzes new trails of consistency by denying the Sovereignty and Omniscience of God). I have found Calvinism to be very biblical, consistent and historically orthodox.
godrulz said:
You misunderstand the Scriptures. The Scriptures teach that evil acts are/were the choice of man and satan, God simply allowed it for the predestined purpose of ensuring all glory would be given to His Son, Jesus Christ. You are pre-judging biblical doctrines by using your puny sinful reasoning that the Apostle Paul warned you against. Let me post the warnings again:
ROM 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
ROM 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
ROM 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
godrulz said:
You are rushing into judgment again as a result of your misunderstanding of the "complete" nature, workings and attributes of God. God sent sinners to attack, kill and destroy Israel and then punished them for doing so. God uses evil for His predestined purposes and proves to all in recorded Scripture that everything is under His direct control and all despite your claims to the contrary:
ISA 10:5 ¶ Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger And the staff in whose hands is My indignation,
ISA 10:6 I send it against a godless nation And commission it against the people of My fury To capture booty and to seize plunder, And to trample them down like mud in the streets.
ISA 10:7 Yet it does not so intend, Nor does it plan so in its heart, But rather it is its purpose to destroy And to cut off many nations.
ISA 10:12 ¶ So it will be that when the Lord has completed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, He will say, "I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the pomp of his haughtiness."
Amazing, isn't it?
We cannot pit verses against each other to create a contradiction. Open Theism allows us to take both sets of verses literally, rather than explaining them away figuratively (e.g. some of the future is predestined/settled, but some of the future is open and contingent; God is unchanging, yet changes His mind).
Mr. Coffee
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Isa. 14:24, 27godrulz said:
The LORD of Hosts has sworn:
As I have planned, so it will be;
as I have purposed it, so it will happen.
The LORD of Hosts Himself has planned it;
therefore, who can stand in its way?
It is His hand that is outstretched,
so who can turn it back?
This isn't just an isolated historical event (the king of Assyria), because the text assumes that an unchanging sovereign will is an attribute of God.
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ChristisKing
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godrulz said:
This is at the heart of your error. You think that there are verses that actually contradict each other that are reconciled once you believe the "new" heresy Open Theism. It is not true, God is absolutely Sovereign and Omniscient and there are no verses that contradict these revealed attributes, you just think there are.
The Lord never changes His mind:
1SA 15:29 "Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind."
Yet there is a verse:
EXO 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
The Lord had already predestined that Israel would be enslaved in Eygpt for 400 years and would return to their land and repossess it. He revealed this predestined truth to Abraham and was certainly going to complete it, as indeed He did!
GEN 15:13 God said to Abram, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, where they will be enslaved and oppressed four hundred years.
GEN 15:14 "But I will also judge the nation whom they will serve, and afterward they will come out with many possessions.
GEN 15:16 "Then in the fourth generation they will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet complete."
God was not changing His original predestined purpose, that He revealed to Abraham and later fulfilled, but rather was just revealing the power of intercessory prayer and the coming Christ that Moses was a type of who would also interceed for His/his people.
Mr. Coffee said:
Will is an aspect of personality, not a metaphysical necessity. If His sovereign will is unchanging, then God is less free than we are. Is. 14 would be an example of something God purposes to bring to pass by His great omnicompetent ability. It is in a specific context and cannot be extrapolated from the specific to the general (logical fallacy). The key is to find out what God has predestined and purposed (e.g. the Messiah would die as the Lamb of God, rise from the dead, and return to reign) while recognizing what He has not settled about the future (what I will wear tomorrow; who will win the next Superbowl, etc.).
If God purposes to judge an unrepentant nation, it will happen because of His ability.
If God choses to give a prophecy conditional on repentance or lack thereof, then God can change His sovereign will in response to changing circumstances or responses of men.
Agape4Robin
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:BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO:ChristisKing said:
Mr. Coffee
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His will is not an uncontrollable urge. He does what he wants to do.godrulz said:
Ephesians 1:11
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will.
"It is His hand that is outstretched, so who can turn it back?" That's a general statement about God.
James 4:13-16
Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will travel to such and such a city and spend a year there and do business and make a profit." You don't even know what tomorrow will bring—what your life will be! For you are a bit of smoke that appears for a little while, then vanishes. Instead, you should say, "If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that." But as it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.
lee_merrill
New member
Yes, this is singular, too, asking about any individual, which individual can do this? And also, the other end of the spectrum is considered:Mr. Coffee said:
Isaiah 14:26 This is the plan determined for the whole world; this is the hand stretched out over all nations.
So the total perspective is covered, from the lone individual, to the whole world, and no one can turn God's hand back, all along the scale, they cannot thwart his purpose:
Isaiah 14:27 "For the Lord of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it?"
Blessings,
Lee
Other verses show that God changes His mind in response to changing contingencies. The unchanging proof texts (I Sam.; Mal.) show that God is not fickle or capricious like man. They do not prove He is an unchanging stone. There is a difference between WILL NOT change His mind in a specific instance, and CANNOT change His mind all the time.
God's purposes and desires do not change. He is just and faithful in all He does. This does not mean He cannot add years to Hezekiah's life despite saying He would die sooner. God changes in response to believing prayer, at times.
God's purposes and desires do not change. He is just and faithful in all He does. This does not mean He cannot add years to Hezekiah's life despite saying He would die sooner. God changes in response to believing prayer, at times.
ChristisKing
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godrulz said:
This unchangable will means He is perfect and never needs to change His mind. That's why the Scripture say's He "will not lie or change His mind." He can not sin nor can He change His mind because He is perfectly free from error.
1SA 15:29 "Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind."
You don't have a proper understanding of freedom. You believe that true freedom includes the ability to be less than perfect, the ability to sin, and therefore the need and the ability to change your mind and nothing can be further from the truth.
Perfect freedom is to be perfect in every act, the ability never to sin and therefore the ability never to change your mind or will. That is true freedom! The Lord taught us that when we sin were are not free but slaves to sin. He said He could set us free from this slavery.
JOH 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
JOH 8:34 ¶ Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
JOH 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
1CO 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
godrulz said:
God knows all things immediately. He doesn't learn anything as history transpires. He knows the end from the beginning. He is not like a man who learns or is surprised by events.
ISA 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';
The Lord's will is set from the beginning and never changes:
PSA 33:11 The counsel of the Lord stands forever, The plans of His heart from generation to generation.
Man can daily plan what he wills, but the Lord's will will always be done:
PRO 19:21 Many plans are in a man's heart, But the counsel of the Lord will stand.
The Lord's intended plans never ever change:
ISA 14:24 The Lord of hosts has sworn saying, "Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand,
The Lord's plans were formed in eternity and He carries them out faithfully never waivering:
ISA 25:1 O Lord, You are my God; I will exalt You, I will give thanks to Your name; For You have worked wonders, Plans formed long ago, with perfect faithfulness.
ChristisKing
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godrulz said:
I see we dislike what disagrees with us.
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