ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[godrulz]

Open Theism concepts are not just a few years old. There were hints of it throughout church history. The issues of time vs eternity, omniscience, foreknowledge, etc. were not as pressing to the church as defending the Trinity and Deity of Christ, the nature of the incarnation, salvation by grace through faith, etc. There was also a descent from biblical truth that has gradually been restored over time.

 

[Lon]

Lonster,

Reasons time travel is impossible is because of the millions of paradoxes it makes:
-A man travels back in time and shoots his own father.
-A man goes back in time to prevent a past event (shooting of JFK). He succeeds. Now in the future, the traveler never learns of this event. Never travels back in time, then JFK is dead again.
-A man goes back in time to see his own birth. The same adams that make up his brain are suddenly in two places at once (Physically impossible) so he dies at birth.

There there is only one way this is possible. Multiple dimensions would have to exist, in which case you are not traveling back in time, but rather to another dimension. The travelers original dimension is actually never traveled to, or altered in anyway. It's like watching the old Freaky Friday stopping in the middle, then starting the new one from the beginning.

If time travel were possible, all time would have to exist at once. For God, time would be a DVD he could rewind or fast forward. This means he made time. If he made time, we have no freewill. I hope that is logical to you.

But he never mentions in the bible going back in time to set future events right. And time isn't really an object in the bible. It is a huge accusation to set forth, one that goes WAY beyond scripture...

I hope you are getting a theme I am trying to establish for you. Look at your theology and how you are trying to support it, look at how far outside of scripture you must go.

Explain the sun turning back for Joshua?

 

[Lighthouse]

Explain the sun turning back for Joshua?

:bang:

Do you really think that anyone traveled through time, because the Earth went in reverse a little?

 

[godrulz]

Explain the sun turning back for Joshua?

This did not tamper with time itself, but the subjective measure or perception of it.

We set our clocks ahead this weekend. That did not interrupt normal duration or sequence.

Whatever the nature of God's intervention in Josh's universe, it did not stop time from marching on (time is unidirectional...events continued to unfold in succession in real space-time around the universe).

 

[Lon]

I can't seem to point quick enough!

:mock: Lonster

So tell me.

Are those Star Trek conventions really all they're cracked up to be?

"It's an intriguing idea, and it underscores the fact that time travel into the indefinite future is consistent with the laws of nature." Carl Sagan

Also go take this test:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/time/think05.html

It should convince you that "That time is not the same for all observers."

Even Gene Roddenberry based his ideas for that series on real science at the time. Surely speculative, but based on scientific information.

If I ever actually went to a convention (I'm not a huge trekkie), I'll get your addy and send you a postcard. Again, my only contention is that science fact does calculate right now, and may very well one day prove this 'for man's ability' but the idea is already more than plausible, even from science, for God to do this already.

 

[Lon]

:bang:

Do you really think that anyone traveled through time, because the Earth went in reverse a little?

Unfortunately, it should have raised a gazillion questions for you. There are all kinds of issues regarding this passage so banging your head is a good icon for what should have actually happened in your logical brain. This story should cause a lot more of this reaction than your initial gloss over. Seriously, go do a Google of it or something. There are all kinds of questions that should have been raised that a casual glossing will never take care of. It is a very perplexing time consideration among others.

 

[Lighthouse]

Unfortunately, it should have raised a gazillion questions for you. There are all kinds of issues regarding this passage so banging your head is a good icon for what should have actually happened in your logical brain. This story should cause a lot more of this reaction than your initial gloss over. Seriously, go do a Google of it or something. There are all kinds of questions that should have been raised that a casual glossing will never take care of. It is a very perplexing time consideration among others.

Time was not traveled through.

 

[Lon]

Time was not traveled through.

Time is a perception:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/question618.htm

If I can lose a day simply by travelling, God is capable of much more.

If the earth stood still, and Joshua had 20 or so hours it clearly shows God has ability to transcend our perception and physical changes. If God can stop the movement of planets, He could also freeze all including you and I. You would say time still proceeds, but not for us. If time can be stopped, it shows that God is transcendent. If God is transcendent there are no time limitations for Him.

Shall I keep going or are you going to start the Google? There are huge considerations here.

 

[patman]

Explain the sun turning back for Joshua?

Common Lonster. God could dribble the sun in circles around the moon if he wanted. He could shoot it off the Jupiter into the corner pocket! :doh:

 

[Lighthouse]

Time is a perception:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/question618.htm

If I can lose a day simply by travelling, God is capable of much more.

If the earth stood still, and Joshua had 20 or so hours it clearly shows God has ability to transcend our perception and physical changes. If God can stop the movement of planets, He could also freeze all including you and I. You would say time still proceeds, but not for us. If time can be stopped, it shows that God is transcendent. If God is transcendent there are no time limitations for Him.

Shall I keep going or are you going to start the Google? There are huge considerations here.

:kookoo:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Explain the sun turning back for Joshua?

Time marched on, even for Joshua.

After all... the men still swung their swords didn't they?

The battle continued didn't it?

One event still followed another event didn't it?

God gave Joshua more light to win the battle, how He did this I do not know for sure, but what I do know for sure is time didn't stop or go in reverse when this happened. For if it did, it would have not have made it possible for Joshua to accomplish what God wanted him to accomplish.

When we make a claim about time travel, or time standing still (as you have made about Joshua's long day) we must carefully examine what we are really claiming.

If time stopped, Joshua stopped.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Time is a perception:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/question618.htm

If I can lose a day simply by travelling, God is capable of much more.

If the earth stood still, and Joshua had 20 or so hours it clearly shows God has ability to transcend our perception and physical changes. If God can stop the movement of planets, He could also freeze all including you and I. You would say time still proceeds, but not for us. If time can be stopped, it shows that God is transcendent. If God is transcendent there are no time limitations for Him.

Shall I keep going or are you going to start the Google? There are huge considerations here.

Lonster, before you continue....

You are confusing TIME with the measurement of time.

TIME itself is not a thing. TIME is merely the way we describe one event happening after another event.

The measurement of time is altogether different. The measurement of time can be affected by physics. TIME itself is not affected by physics, one event always follows another and so on.

 

[themuzicman]

With this in mind, couldn't we conclude that seeing the execution of the action before it happens doesn't coincide or have anything to do with the decision being executed?

Not sure how you can take intentional action without deciding to do so first.

I actually don't remember you using these examples to defute foreknowledge, but it's good to know you see the difference here.

I don't

It certainly is one definition. My question is that the ability to do otherwise is used as a necessary condition of free will in these arguments.

Well, if you can only do one thing, then you aren't free to do anything else. It doesn't get much simpler than that.

I see God's refusal to sin being done freely even though He is unable to do otherwise. It seems to me that the ability to do otherwise is unecessary when that one option is the one we want to do. The scripture, as Lee Merrill pointed out to me, says God is unable as incapable; not unable as in unwilling.

So, God isn't free to sin. What's the big deal?

With this in mind then premise #9.....

(9) If you cannot do otherwise when you act, you do not act freely. [Principle of Alternate Possibilities]​

.....makes a false assumption and is invalid. The fallacy arises because it states that doing otherwise when you act is necessary.

Rob

To be honest, I don't get how you can call being a robot "free".

Muz

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Notice the key word in the verse.....

So the sun stood still, And the moon stopped, Till the people had revenge Upon their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day. - Joshua 10:13

TILL.

As in UNTIL. (a measurement of time).

"Till the people had revenge Upon their enemies."

Time did not stand still, in fact time was the key element that was needed (more of it, in the form of more light to get more accomplished) "Till the people had revenge Upon their enemies.".

God found a way to light the the night sky to grant more time for the people to get revenge upon their enemies.

Also notice....
How long did it stay light???? "for about a whole day"

Another measurement of time. God gave extra light "for about a whole day" (another measurement of time). Time DID NOT stop, for if it did, we could not have measured "for about a whole day".

 

[Nathon Detroit]

A. Do you believe that God has EXHAUSTIVE foreknowledge?

Lonster's answer... "A. Yeah"

B. Do you believe that there has ever been a time when God did not have EXHAUSTIVE foreknowledge?

Lonster's answer... B. No, if it is true, He'd always have to have had it.

C. Do you believe that God's foreknowledge is accurate?

Lonster's answer... C. Yes

OK, very good. Now if God has exhaustive foreknowledge and He has always had it (an eternity ago) and that foreknowledge is accurate, NOTHING can ever happen in any other way other than the way it happens as contained within God's accurate EXHAUSTIVE foreknowledge, AGREE?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

"It's an intriguing idea, and it underscores the fact that time travel into the indefinite future is consistent with the laws of nature." Carl Sagan

Also go take this test:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/time/think05.html

It should convince you that "That time is not the same for all observers."

Even Gene Roddenberry based his ideas for that series on real science at the time. Surely speculative, but based on scientific information.

If I ever actually went to a convention (I'm not a huge trekkie), I'll get your addy and send you a postcard. Again, my only contention is that science fact does calculate right now, and may very well one day prove this 'for man's ability' but the idea is already more than plausible, even from science, for God to do this already.

Hey Lonster which one are you?

 

[patman]

Dear God. Thank you for this day.

I pray, O Lord, that Lonster's next post isn't a wiki-report or news article about time travel.

In Jesus' name,

Amen.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Dear God. Thank you for this day.

I pray, O Lord, that Lonster's next post isn't a wiki-report or news article about time travel.

In Jesus' name,

Amen.

:rotfl:

 

[Clete]

What's the point of having the choice to do otherwise when it is meaningless. We never do it.

Rob,

Do you ever make a choice?

Yes or No



Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. I'm including this post script because without it, there is no way Rob would have ever understood the point of this post. Think it through Rob. Do you ever make a choice? Yes or No

 

[patman]

Dear God. Thank you for this day.

I pray, O Lord, that Lonster's next post isn't a wiki-report or news article about time travel.

In Jesus' name,

Amen.

So far so good folks. Maybe there isn't freewill after all.