ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1
- Thread starter ChristisKing
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elected4ever
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It is the only one you will getClete said:
Knight and Bib Hill :rotfl:Clete said:
You said, "God the Son said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." and "If you abide in My word (logos (i.e. logic)), you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” Sense you ,by your own words, "I didn't say it did." In reference to your theology not setting you free, you admit that your theology is wrong because it does not set you free.Clete said:
elected4ever
New member
I know. You wont it your way and not God's way.Poly said:
Which is precisely the point I was making and none of which makes any sense outside of sound reason. I am sort of getting to the point where I don't like the fact that English Bibles translate the Greek word "Logos" with the word "Word". It just doesn't convey the meaning of the logos sufficiently. I know tons of people who would think that the last sentence you typed was referring to the Bible rather than to Jesus Christ Himself.godrulz said:
"Word" is not an entirely incorrect translation because the idea of words and communication is included within the word logos, but logos equates almost perfectly with our English word logic. Without logic, communication of any sort is impossible and truth has no meaning whatsoever. The concept of logos includes more than mere words and communication but thoughts, reason, sequence and process as well, just as our concept of logic does. Logos implies the ability to know things for certain and to think about them and make connections between concepts that might seem superficially to be unrelated. In short, the word "word" just doesn't get you there nearly so much as does the word "logic". If you read your post and put "logic" in place of the term "word", you will be very much closer to the Biblical teaching concerning the truths you just uttered.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Sometimes it's better to just make posts that don't engage any other TOL member or possibly make posts that don't ask a question of another member. Just post the truth and let the chips fall where they may.Clete said:I'm very quickly running out of candidates with which to have productive discussions on this forum.
I have learned a ton on TOL from Bob Hill yet he rarely if ever engages people in debate and that's OK.
Also don't let dumb posters get under your skin, we all know how stupid they are. Just hit us with the truth Clete, I love your posts.
Clete said:
Hey Clete, I have no idea what you are talking about.
First of all, I was responding to Knight's nonsensical comment, which I took to mean, that we can understand God fully through human logic. Therefore I quoted the scriptures concerning God saying that His ways are past our finding out. Additionally we are hindered in this world, from seeing Him as He is, and thus our reasoning abilities are not reliable concerning someone whom we can not fully see.
Secondly I jumped into this forum from a "new" thread. I am not about to read 341 pages to get up to speed. Sorry if my quotation was out of place and already covered.
Thirdly from reading your posts on the last few pages I can only conclude that you are one rude and insulting person, who is frustrated beyond your ability to cope. You might want to take a break, if dealing with those you consider mental midgets causes such great anxiety.
Lastly, aside from your insults, there is nothing in your actual post concerning God and His nature, with which I disagree. God is not irrational, and I do not reject logic. Which brings me back to my original statement. Clete, I have no idea what you are talking about.
As we use to say, take a "chill pill" man and cool down.
Why would you take it in that way? I mean seriously; do you actually think that Knight is that dumb? :nono:jeremiah said:
How does it follow that our reasoning doesn't work because we cannot know everything there is to know about God?
What we do know (which is quite a lot really - although not in comparison with what there is to know) we can use reliably in order to establish all sorts of truths that impact every area of our lives. If our reasoning abilities cannot be trusted then we have no way of applying or even figuring out such truths.
This is common, and I have no problem when such things happen. The fact is I haven't been keeping up with the thread either and have no idea whether your post was redundant or not.
I am extremely rude and intentionally insulting to people who are intentionally stupid, dishonest and/or blasphemous. And I am very frustrated indeed because I happen to take these issues rather seriously and I find it revolting when people like e4e are more interested in playing games than engaging important discussion in substantive ways.
"Those I consider"? Are you serious?
e4e is an idiot and intentionally so. RobE, while I doubt it is intentional (in fact his intentions seem quite genuine), is apparently just flat out incapable of following the conversation. These things are demonstrably factual as even a casual reading of this thread would prove. My opinions one way or another are irrelevant.
GREAT! I am genuinely glad to hear it! You have no idea how truly rare this is!
I suspect that my misunderstanding of your point came as a result of your misunderstanding of Knight's.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Clete said:
Thanks for clearing up some things.
I will just clarify the two points above.
1 No, I don't think that Knight is that stupid, and that was why I responded with a "What", followed by several question marks. For any number of reasons he has not responded to my Question but you have answered on his behalf. and we will assume he approves of your response for him.
2. I didn't say, nor mean to imply that our reasoning doesn't work when it comes to understanding God. I "was" implying that it can only take us to the limits of how much God has revealed about Himself, to us, at this time. When we have a greater revelation, and "sight", then our reasoning, will take us to its limits.
It is the Spirit which searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
There is also a danger to know all mysteries, and have all knowledge, and have all faith, and yet have absolutely nothing! Because Love is greater than knowledge and faith.
I am sure that you "know" this, as well.
elected4ever
New member
When all else fails, duck. You very well know what I am talking about. :loser:Clete said:
elected4ever
New member
I have learned enough from him to pity those that fall for his garbage.Knight said:
Lon
Well-known member
Can you believe I've been on here for just over 3 months and didn't know this thread existed?
Give me time, with 5000 posts I've got a lot of reading to catch up on.
First off, I am going to repeat this over and over and over and over. I believe strongly that much of the problem is a communication gap.
From spending time here, I can see a few points and I'll continue to read and post here so that we might be able to dialogue more correctly.
1) The approach to understanding is completely different so that we are really almost talking about 2 entirely different things when discussing the same terms.
2) We have a diffferent commitment to knowledge here. The SV says that there are characteristics that belong to God that cannot be fully known or expressed because they are His characteristics alone and we do not share them so see Him through a glass darkly. What this means, is that the SV position will always be an incomplete and attackable theology. We continue to make concessions for our understanding because we are trying to put together a puzzle where God speciffically has not given us all the pieces and has promised to do so at a later date.
3) Our commitments or rejection of the 'greek' influences will continue to be a wedge. The SV position isn't so much committed to all greek ideology as they are to coincidal truth of the matter. You can blame the greeks, but our position comes naturally from scripture and most SV isn't as linked to greek philosophy as you purport. Until this idea is either dismissed or at least recognized as not a true factor, you'll continue to make a faulty assumption much like we do with Sanders and other early OV writers(Pinnock). We both have to get to a point where we recognize that some of our founders' writings do not adequately express all of our views.
We need to go back to ontological meaning for almost all of our terms and discuss them for meaning. I've seen both sides reject the other's view and I'm convinced that neither understands what the other is saying. Here is a started thread for instance that speaks to this directly: http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35664&page=1&pp=15
We need to stop prejudice. Sanders and Pinnock are often used to refute OV theism. Greeks are used to refute SV and nobody gets down to talking about what they really believe. On top of this, once a discussion does get started, accusations start flying and instead of asking "what do you mean?" we either blast the individual as being retarded or go back to dissing on the forefathers again.
What if I said "I hate OV theology." So what? If you said "I hate SV theology." So what?
I do not hate OV, I just don't happen to agree with the position but I care about OVer's because I believe they love God. I believe they love Jesus. You know what I find interesting? When Jesus was walking in Israel, He didn't really get into the theology debate that often. Did you notice? He could have easily settled many many debates between the Sadducees and Pharisees (the OV SV of the day?). Maybe He did a bit more correcting than the disciples wrote. John said if it were all written down, no library could contain the books. That's pretty powerful. So what are we left with? Know Jesus, live for Him and make Him known. That seems pretty reasonable to me. I'm not too hung up on our differences. For the record, I don't think I could ever be a true OV, but what I appreciate is that I can talk to those who need Jesus here and I pray over every post I write to them in hopes that one might come to the Jesus I love so much.
Sure, let's continue to talk about our differences but let's focus on things Jesus tended to focus on, Major on the Majors and minor on the minors. Theology is important. Being right is important. We agree on the Majority of the rights, let's reach those who need Him most. I have no problem if an unbeliever becomes SV or OV. I honestly believe that we will not be OV or SV in heaven. I'd like to hope I'm more right than wrong, but the one thing I do know is that Jesus saves and our world desperately needs Him.
Give me time, with 5000 posts I've got a lot of reading to catch up on.
First off, I am going to repeat this over and over and over and over. I believe strongly that much of the problem is a communication gap.
From spending time here, I can see a few points and I'll continue to read and post here so that we might be able to dialogue more correctly.
1) The approach to understanding is completely different so that we are really almost talking about 2 entirely different things when discussing the same terms.
2) We have a diffferent commitment to knowledge here. The SV says that there are characteristics that belong to God that cannot be fully known or expressed because they are His characteristics alone and we do not share them so see Him through a glass darkly. What this means, is that the SV position will always be an incomplete and attackable theology. We continue to make concessions for our understanding because we are trying to put together a puzzle where God speciffically has not given us all the pieces and has promised to do so at a later date.
3) Our commitments or rejection of the 'greek' influences will continue to be a wedge. The SV position isn't so much committed to all greek ideology as they are to coincidal truth of the matter. You can blame the greeks, but our position comes naturally from scripture and most SV isn't as linked to greek philosophy as you purport. Until this idea is either dismissed or at least recognized as not a true factor, you'll continue to make a faulty assumption much like we do with Sanders and other early OV writers(Pinnock). We both have to get to a point where we recognize that some of our founders' writings do not adequately express all of our views.
We need to go back to ontological meaning for almost all of our terms and discuss them for meaning. I've seen both sides reject the other's view and I'm convinced that neither understands what the other is saying. Here is a started thread for instance that speaks to this directly: http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35664&page=1&pp=15
We need to stop prejudice. Sanders and Pinnock are often used to refute OV theism. Greeks are used to refute SV and nobody gets down to talking about what they really believe. On top of this, once a discussion does get started, accusations start flying and instead of asking "what do you mean?" we either blast the individual as being retarded or go back to dissing on the forefathers again.
What if I said "I hate OV theology." So what? If you said "I hate SV theology." So what?
I do not hate OV, I just don't happen to agree with the position but I care about OVer's because I believe they love God. I believe they love Jesus. You know what I find interesting? When Jesus was walking in Israel, He didn't really get into the theology debate that often. Did you notice? He could have easily settled many many debates between the Sadducees and Pharisees (the OV SV of the day?). Maybe He did a bit more correcting than the disciples wrote. John said if it were all written down, no library could contain the books. That's pretty powerful. So what are we left with? Know Jesus, live for Him and make Him known. That seems pretty reasonable to me. I'm not too hung up on our differences. For the record, I don't think I could ever be a true OV, but what I appreciate is that I can talk to those who need Jesus here and I pray over every post I write to them in hopes that one might come to the Jesus I love so much.
Sure, let's continue to talk about our differences but let's focus on things Jesus tended to focus on, Major on the Majors and minor on the minors. Theology is important. Being right is important. We agree on the Majority of the rights, let's reach those who need Him most. I have no problem if an unbeliever becomes SV or OV. I honestly believe that we will not be OV or SV in heaven. I'd like to hope I'm more right than wrong, but the one thing I do know is that Jesus saves and our world desperately needs Him.
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
When I look at God's wonderful works, they are awesome, especially when He suffers and is grieved by our behavior.
When I read about His passion, I'm amazed at how much He suffers because of us, and how glad He feels when we come through an ordeal in a good way.
Genesis 6:6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
Genesis 22:12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”
In Christ,
Bob Hill
When I read about His passion, I'm amazed at how much He suffers because of us, and how glad He feels when we come through an ordeal in a good way.
Genesis 6:6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
Genesis 22:12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
In the book of Exodus, He shows His love, patience, and thoughtfulness for Moses and His people.
Exodus 13:17 Then it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God did not lead them by way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, “Lest perhaps the people change their minds when they see war, and return to Egypt.”
Exodus 16:4 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you. And the people shall go out and gather a certain quota every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in My law or not.
Exodus 32:7-14 And the LORD said to Moses, “Go, get down! For your people whom you brought out of the land of Egypt have corrupted themselves. 8 “They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them. They have made themselves a molded calf, and worshiped it and sacrificed to it, and said, ‘This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!’ ” 9 And the LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 “Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.” 11 Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: “LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 “Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and repent from this harm to Your people. 13 “Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’ ”
And the amazing part is when our almighty God repented.
14 So the LORD repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.
Bob Hill
Exodus 13:17 Then it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God did not lead them by way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, “Lest perhaps the people change their minds when they see war, and return to Egypt.”
Exodus 16:4 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you. And the people shall go out and gather a certain quota every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in My law or not.
Exodus 32:7-14 And the LORD said to Moses, “Go, get down! For your people whom you brought out of the land of Egypt have corrupted themselves. 8 “They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them. They have made themselves a molded calf, and worshiped it and sacrificed to it, and said, ‘This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!’ ” 9 And the LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 “Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.” 11 Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: “LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 “Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and repent from this harm to Your people. 13 “Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’ ”
And the amazing part is when our almighty God repented.
14 So the LORD repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.
Bob Hill
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