ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[themuzicman]

God is certainly capable of anything. He didn't lie to Moses any more than He lied to Neb., Jonah, or the Ninevites. He's incapable of lying. God could have fulfilled His promise while following through with His threat against Israel.

Thus, there is no reason to believe the things you insert into the text, and simply read it as it reads: God tells Moses of His intent to destroy Israel and start over with him, Moses pleads (and from the further text, fasted), and God changed His mind.

Just like the text reads.

I certainly haven't. I was trying to point out that God did as He foretold He would when we review the historical record. It's that simple. The arguments that God changed his mind seem rather sickly when we compare what God foretold would happen and realize that it inevitably did happen just as it was foretold.

But as you've already acknowledged, it could have happened as foretold without God changing His mind, too, so there is no reason to accept your line of reasoning as necessary or a basis for disbelieving what is written in the text.

QED.

Muz

 

[elected4ever]

It didn't require a change in His character, and no one is saying it did. What we are saying is that God decided not to do something He had previously decided not to do. How is that not a change?

You sure you have this stated right?

 

[godrulz]

It does for us, but not God. It appears as change to us and our languages are so limited that we describe it as change but it is not a change. God is not a man that we should think of Him as a man.

Just because God thinks, feels, and acts (men also do these things being in His image) does not make Him a man. God does not think exactly like us, but He does think.

Anthropomorphisms are in the Bible, but every self-revelation of God's nature and ways is not one. Your only justification is to retain a preconceived theology, not to accept the Bible at face value when it is obvious that we can and should in most cases.

 

[themuzicman]

It does for us, but not God. It appears as change to us and our languages are so limited that we describe it as change but it is not a change. God is not a man that we should think of Him as a man.

Is God a man that He should lie?

Muz

 

[elected4ever]

Did God decide to destroy Nineveh?

No

Did God decide not to destroy Nineveh?

No

 

[elected4ever]

Just because God thinks, feels, and acts (men also do these things being in His image) does not make Him a man. God does not think exactly like us, but He does think.

Anthropomorphisms are in the Bible, but every self-revelation of God's nature and ways is not one. Your only justification is to retain a preconceived theology, not to accept the Bible at face value when it is obvious that we can and should in most cases.

A reflection is hardly the same as the real thing

 

[Lighthouse]

You sure you have this stated right?

Yes.

 

[Lighthouse]

No

No

Then what did He do?:liberals:

 

[Lighthouse]

A reflection is hardly the same as the real thing

Who is the reflection? Us, or God?

 

[elected4ever]

Your only justification is to retain a preconceived theology, not to accept the Bible at face value when it is obvious that we can and should in most cases.

That is your problem, a preconceived theology and you don't accept the Bible at face value.

 

[elected4ever]

Yes.

Read this sentence again "What we are saying is that God decided not to do something He had previously decided not to do." Sounds line something I would wright. makes no sense.

 

[elected4ever]

Then what did He do?:liberals:

Nothing

 

[elected4ever]

Who is the reflection? Us, or God?

Reading other peoples mail I see. To answer the question though, Us

 

[RobE]

But as you've already acknowledged, it could have happened as foretold without God changing His mind, too, so there is no reason to accept your line of reasoning as necessary or a basis for disbelieving what is written in the text.

QED.

Muz

Or ignoring what the text as a whole says.

Rob

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Did God decide to destroy Nineveh?

No

Did God decide not to destroy Nineveh?

No

:rotfl:

 

[Clete]

The book of Jonah also reports that Jonah expected Nineveh to repent. Do you really think God knew less than Jonah when He issued the warning to Nineveh?

Rob

That isn't the point! The point is that the prophecy was not fulfilled!

Did you read Jonah 3:10?

How does that verse not complete demolish your position?

God comes right out and says that He didn't do what He said He was going to do and why. An action, by the way, which is completely consistent with a principle which is blatantly spelled out in the 18th chapter of Jeremiah.

Prophecy is not prewritten history; it just isn't! The Bible comes right out and says so. Why can't you except it? The only possible reason is that you cherish your theology over the plainly stated principles within the pages of Scripture. What other possible reason could there be?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Who changed, God or the Ninevites; Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; The Ninevites changed. not God. God acted from His perfect justice and mercy. It did not require a change in God.

It required a change in His stated intentions but not in His character (i.e. his justice, mercy, etc.). Basically stated, the Bible gets it right when it says that God changed His mind.

Jonah 3:10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented (nacham) from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.​

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[RobE]

That isn't the point! The point is that the prophecy was not fulfilled!

Did you read Jonah 3:10?

How does that verse not complete demolish your position?

It doesn't demolish my position because.....

God comes right out and says that He didn't do what He said He was going to do and why. An action, by the way, which is completely consistent with a principle which is blatantly spelled out in the 18th chapter of Jeremiah.​

....of this same principle. It's blatantly spelled out by Jonah as well.

Prophecy is not prewritten history; it just isn't! The Bible comes right out and says so. Why can't you except it? The only possible reason is that you cherish your theology over the plainly stated principles within the pages of Scripture. What other possible reason could there be?

Prophecy isn't prewritten history. It's foreknowledge of what will occur in history. Much different than being pre-written. Prophecy is foretelling what is foreknown. A rejection of this principle would make God into a person who doesn't know what He's talking about. Someone stumbling along through life like myself. Someone who is blown to and fro like the wind. This isn't the God of scripture.

Rob

 

[Clete]

It doesn't demolish my position because.....

God comes right out and says that He didn't do what He said He was going to do and why. An action, by the way, which is completely consistent with a principle which is blatantly spelled out in the 18th chapter of Jeremiah.​

....of this same principle. It's blatantly spelled out by Jonah as well.

DID YOU READ JONAH 3:10?

:bang:

And you wonder why I basically ignore you!?

Prophecy isn't prewritten history. It's foreknowledge of what will occur in history.

Idiot.
You don't know a contradiction when you say one? Give me a break.

Much different than being pre-written. Prophecy is foretelling what is foreknown. A rejection of this principle would make God into a person who doesn't know what He's talking about.

This is a lie and is in fact blasphemous because the plain fact is that there are several prophecies that did not come to pass. I repeat, there are several prophecies that did not come to pass.

Someone stumbling along through life like myself. Someone who is blown to and fro like the wind. This isn't the God of scripture.

No kidding you freak! No one believes this crap! Why do you people have to resort to this sort of idiotic nonsense? Why can't you defend your beliefs against something that someone actually believes? Why is it that you have to make stuff up that you know is not true (why do you have to lie) in order to support your theology? Don't you have anything at all to support what you believe? Do you even know what you believe or why you believe it? I really don't think you do! I have found it impossible to maintain even the simplest of conversations with you on the most superficial aspects of these issues and you have repeatedly proven to be completely incapable of keeping your eye on the ball for more than two posts in a row!

I'm done wasting my time trying to get you to understand something that is obviously over your head.

:wave2:

 

[patman]

:sigh:

Why do people believe God cannot function without future knowledge but CAN function as he predetermines sin?

IF GOD IS ALL GOOD, SO ARE HIS PLANS. THEREFORE HIS PLANS WOULD NEVER INCLUDE SIN.