Hi everyone,
Poly said:
… only because God is in control of whether an individual has a supposed control over something, why call it "self"-control?
Ah, now I see the point, yes, God gives us the ability to control ourselves, and I do believe believers can really choose within God’s will, so God doesn’t make all decisions. So the real freedom is within the bounds of self-control, God will let us run the ship, our own ship, within his will, and his ship as well, at times!
Revelation 3:21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
Patman said:
"I will make you" what? Sin?
No, but at God’s command sinful people punished them, and their fear was of those sinful men, so sinful people and sinful deeds are involved here, and by the plan of God.
If God is so planning, why is he constantly changing his plans?
You may know I conclude God does not change his plans.
God says he will give Judah to Babylon to go into captivity, Babylon instead leaves half of Judah in Judah, then those in Judah run to Egypt.
But every person need not go to Babylon to fulfill the prophecy:
Jeremiah 24:5-8 This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: 'Like these good figs, I regard as good the exiles from Judah, whom I sent away from this place to the land of the Babylonians. My eyes will watch over them for their good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up and not tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them. I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the Lord. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart. ‘But like the poor figs, which are so bad they cannot be eaten,' says the Lord, 'so will I deal with Zedekiah king of Judah, his officials and the survivors from Jerusalem, whether they remain in this land or live in Egypt.’
We see here even that God thought they might, some of them, go to Egypt…
Pat: God plainly said Satan did it
Lee: This verse over here insinuates God did it.
And you cannot do that.
Because Scripture says they both did it, you know. So…
Lee: God plainly said God did it
Pat: This verse over here insinuates Satan did it.
This works either way, and gets us nowhere. So then if Scripture says both Satan did it, and God did it, then I think the Open View point is still done for, regardless of who was the ultimate cause, there is agency both by Satan (for a bad purpose) and also by God (for a good purpose).
"A good God causes Satan to Cause Evil to make Good?"
That’s right, he does.
"This is the same lesson we learn from 2 Cor. 12:7 where Paul says that his thorn in the flesh was a messenger of Satan, and yet was given for the purpose of his own holiness. 'To keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me – to keep me from exalting myself!' Now, humility is not Satan's purpose in this affliction. Therefore the purpose is God's. Which means that Satan here is being used by God to accomplish his good purposes in Paul's life." (John Piper)
I already explained how you were taking the verse out of it's context.
I, foolish person that I am, when I read “the Lord took away,” think it means the Lord took away.
Yes yes yes, bad things happen to good people when God punishes the wicked.
Then God’s actions do afflict the righteous sometimes? We also left out God refining the righteous, God afflicts his people for that reason, you know!
Hebrews 12:7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?
Hebrews 12:10 Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness.
And sometimes this discipline is at the hands of sinful men.
2 Samuel 7:14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men.
Of which we see an example with Solomon, for instance.
He sometimes uses hard lessons, this is true, but he does not cause sin in this, ever.
1 Kings 11:23 And God raised up against Solomon another adversary, Rezon son of Eliada, who had fled from his master, Hadadezer king of Zobah.
1 Kings 11:25 Rezon was Israel's adversary as long as Solomon lived, adding to the trouble caused by Hadad. So Rezon ruled in Aram and was hostile toward Israel.
This is quite clear language, God did this, though I agree that sin does not flow from God, he is not the source of sin, but his actions do bring about sinful actions.
Romans 5:20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more…
Philetus said:
… the suffering of Christ Jesus on our behalf is the work of sinful men and the result of sin itself. God willed himself to be handed over to sinful men and die. God did not cause our suffering.
I was speaking here of the suffering of Christ, who was an innocent man, the claim here was that God would not afflict an innocent person.
It isn’t the suffering that produces ‘some greater good’.
“By his wounds we are healed.”
Blessings,
Lee
