ARCHIVE: Lying is never righteous!

[Dee Dee Warren]

As well as the Lesser-He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named

 

[Jaltus]

I thought LHWMNBN never figured out the smiley system? Oh well.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Maybe you are right... LHWMNBN did figure it out over at CWS though before he, like his brother before him, earned his spot on one of my ignore lists... only it didn't take three trips for his to be permanent.

 

[.Ant]

Dishonesty is dishonesty

Dishonesty is dishonesty

Hi Dee Dee, Jaltus, bill, Jerry, Knight and others... I've come to do what I like to do - clear up arguments

This thread has a base discussion and an offshoot. Here's my rebuttal to the offshoot (what exactly is lying?):

Originally posted by Jaltus
I would like to point out that everyone is assuming that the midwives lied. It could in fact be true that many of the Hebrew women gave birth early. The Bible does not say that they are wrong, it just records what they said.

Mind you, the women could be hiding behind making a general claim and using it for specific cases it was not necessarily true for, which is misleading but not a lie.

Originally posted by Jaltus
bill,

You may want to reread my post. My point is that if it happened a few times, that the Hebrews gave birth quickly, they could use that as a generalization behind which they would hide.

That really is splitting hairs. What's the moral difference between a straight lie and a purposefully misleading statement? They're both dishonest and deceptive. Note that the bible doesn't only condemn lies, but also deception (do a search on your favourite translation). In any case, as Dee Dee pointed out, the hebrew words for lie (Shaqar, Sheqar and Kazab) include trickery and deception.

As Dee Dee said,

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
How consistent are you going to be Bill? Did Clinton lie about Monica Lewinsky when he said "I did not have intercourse with that woman."

 

[.Ant]

Sin is in the heart

Sin is in the heart

And here's my rebuttal on the base issue:

Originally posted by Jaltus
Sorry, but it does not fly that God would praise people for lying. Oh, as for Rahab, she is praised for her FAITH, not her lying. Bad example, that one.

She was also praised for her protection of the Israelite spies (which she did by lying).

Originally posted by Gavin
Just my two cents:

1 Samuel 16:2
But Samuel said, "How can I go? Saul will hear about it and kill me." The LORD said, "Take a heifer with you and say, 'I have come to sacrifice to the LORD .'

God commands a lie.

Well, it wasn't a lie, but it was certainly misleading.

Originally posted by mindlight
Jesus never lied and always had the wisdom to find a way of answering the question that put the problem of answering it back on his listeners or at least challenged them to look a little deeper. He had the authority, wisdom and presence to do this and to get away with this until his appointed time and it would not have fitted his mission to lie in any circumstances. He was and is the ruler of the kingdom of God not a politician or soldier playing to the rules of the present worldly order.

Jesus never lied. But he didn't always (at least directly) answer the questions asked of him. Or, as billwald said, "He occasionally obfuscated."

Originally posted by Jaltus
Your little inner tube argument is frankly stupid. Inner tubes were not around when Jesus was, but lying was most definitely around.

Perhaps Jesus was never put in a position where it was right for him to lie.


---


This leads to my beliefs on the issue:

Originally posted by mindlight
It would have been right to tell a lie to the Nazis about whether or not I was hiding Jews if I thought that that would have saved them. Here love for the Jew I was hiding was the higher truth than telling a deceived SS Guard a truth that would mean the death of a person. In other words there is a hierarchy of values that should govern ones actions and in a fallen world one often has to choose between the lesser of two evils.

I believe Davids techniques of survival and of eliminating Israels enemies fitted the times he was called in and Gods purpose and did achieve Gods purpose, but interestingly he was not regarded worthy of building the temple of God.

I disagree with the concept of choosing the "lesser of two evils". Many things are evil depending on the circumstances. Sometimes lying is good and righteous. But I think my disagreement with mindlight is only in conceptual definition - we basically agree.

For instance, in the Nazi situation described above. "Love always protects" - it would not be loving in this case to be honest to the SS. Jesus summed up the Law and the Prophets in two commands - love God and your neighbour. Lying is a sin because it is not loving God or your neighbour. But sometimes, lying is loving. Love requires you to lie in this situation - to protect the people you are hiding. Your lie here is not unloving to God either, because of his overriding command to love, and it is not unloving to the SS, because they have no right or authority to ask that question in order to find the Jews. You have no compulsion before God to tell the truth.

Jerry gave a similar justification based on Jesus's basis of the law.

Originally posted by Hank
You can choose to tell the truth or you can choose to lie regardless of the consequences. Jesus chose to tell the truth even when faced with death and the world was changed forever. How much would be changed if everyone chose to tell the truth regardless of the consequences.

I think it's terrible for someone to cooperate with evil men in order to satisfy his/her sense of morality.

Originally posted by Knight
The true evil is the Nazi's slaughtering the Jews. If you lead the Nazi's to the hiding Jewish family it is YOU who are adding to the evil act! You have become a willing accomplice to the slaughter of the Jewish family! Their blood is directly on your hands!

---

Originally posted by Hank
This is the argument that the ends justifies the means. I would ask you again, do you believe that sometimes the end justifies the means?

No. I'm not saying the ends justify the means, but that lying is not always a sin. Same with killing people. I'm saying that to answer these kind of ethical dilemmas, one must know why a sin is a sin, why lying is a sin.

The Bible is different from many religions in that sin is a thing of the heart, which only reveals itself in it's actions. The sin is what is done in the heart.

Thus, biblical morality can sometimes look like relativism, but it is not. For instance, Paul gives an analogy where it may be perfectly okay for you to eat meat sacrificed to idols, but not for your brother. Is that relativistic morality? No - it is morality that considers the heart in it's judgments. Eating the meat would offend the conscience of your brother.

So I disagree with the following:

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
Relativism teaches that morals are relative to the person. In any given identical situation, what is moral for you to do, may not be moral for me to do. There is no absolute rule by which to objectively measure our actions. That is not at all what I have advocated here. I am applying an ABSOLUTE hierarchy of morals which would be applied ABSOLUTELY CONSISTENTLY. As Koukl has put it, “Moral relativism doesn’t have to do with relative circumstances, it has to do with relative people,” and this distinction makes a world of difference, i.e. the difference between Biblical and unbiblical moral functioning. Biblical morality upholds a standard that is outside of and binding upon all persons.

So, in summary, deceptive actions are sometimes right - sin is a heart issue, and God is the judge of it.

 

[Freak]

FYI---

Dee Dee, Jaltus, Cirsime, etc are all history....about 4-5 months ago there was a massive exodus that involved a dozen or more posters that left TOL to form another forum.

 

[.Ant]

Thanks Freak... what forum?

Anyways, it's an important topic... and at least Knight's still around!

 

[Freak]

Re:

Re:

Originally posted by .Ant
Thanks Freak... what forum?

Anyways, it's an important topic... and at least Knight's still around!

I'd rather not say. Knight and I (I believe) are in agreement on this---it be better not to promote their website. They really tried to damage TOL in many ways.

It was a massive exodus that involved many of the top posters--with the exception of me (that is after I was unbanned 3 times by an ex-moderator), Knight, ebenz, Sozo, and a few others.

 

[add yasaf]

bball

bball

Rahab the prostitute lied and was blessed for her actions in saving the two spies. It would not have happened unless she lied. There was no other door open for her to jump in so she did what was right at that time to protect life, LIE.

Is it right to fake someone out when playing basketball. Make it look like you are going one way, and then go the other? of course it is. It is for the greater good, winning!

 

[JosephofMessiah]

Originally posted by bill betzler
One lie does not a liar make. But if you become a liar there is no place in heaven for you. Also, the midwives did bare false witness against the Hebrew women in that they said that the women were quick in child bearing when they were not.

God pays those who work for him.

As do the people who tell a lie to protect the truth from those that would use that same truth for evil.

The midwives were rewarded for saving the babies. The lie to pharaoh was to save their own skin. No where in the scriptures are we told that it is acceptable to lie to save our lives.

The Bible doesn't tell you to wipe your butt either.

The saving of our lives is not worth the sin.

I hope you live by that logic, people like you deserve such logic to protect the gene pool from your genetic code.

This story does not justify lying.

Righteousness is not defined as "a lie" or "a truth" in a relative universe.

Oh, you are a complete ignorant idiot in case I didn't phrase that clear enough.

 

[JosephofMessiah]

Originally posted by Jaltus
Please show where the midwives are given praise for LYING.

Show me where it tells you to do alot of things.

It does not happen.

Many things which are righteous are not rewarded.

I would like to point out that two liars were killed for one little lie each, namely Ananias and Sapphira.

I would also like to point out that nowhere in scripture is lying endorsed.

You seem to be thinking (somehow) that a:

lie = immoral
truth = moral

You would be EXCEEDINGLY ignorant and stupid to think this.

The Bible does not tell us to not lie, it tells us not to "bear false witness against our neighbor."

The reason the Bible does not say to "not lie" is because our reality is relative in nature and sometimes a LIE is the MORAL GOOD action.

If truth would cause an IMMORALITY to happen, then truth is the evil action at that time.

If you cannot see this, then think about the people who smuggled the Jews from Nazi Germany and THOUSANDS of other instances where a lie would have PRESERVED LIFE and caused MORAL GOOD.

Truth is no more in line with MORAL GOOD than a lie at any give time. Each individual instance defines that moment.

It makes me think if you believe that killing is sin.
Killing is not sin.
MURDER is sin.

The correct translation (from Hebrew) of the ten commandments is "thou shalt not murder." The ten commandments NEVER said you are not to kill. Why? Because God knew very clearly that sometimes you must kill to create a MORAL GOOD.

I would also like to point out, contra Dee Dee that there is no heirarchy of morals in terms of what sins are "ok" and which ones are not. All of them cut you off from God. God is totally pure and without sin. God is Holy.

Yes, but you are making out like God has never lied, never killed, never murdered.

That would be ignorance to half the Old Testament's teachings.

All the horrible actions of God were for a MORAL GOOD in the end, that is why God did not sin in doing those actions.

Therefore, God could NEVER endorse ANY kind of sin, it goes against His nature. If you disagree with me, read I John 1.

You have to define sin as an "IMMORAL ACTION." You cannot define sin as abitrary things like "lie, kill, steal." There are many instances when such actions would generate a moral good, and would be the greater choice. And you WOULD be held accountable to God if you did not to the right thing at that instance and lie!

Those that turned Jewish families in during Nazi Germany so they would not have to lie...they will give account for their SINS OF TELLING THE TRUTH!

As for choosing between two sins, read I Corinthians 10:13
13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

Sorry, but it does not fly that God would praise people for lying. Oh, as for Rahab, she is praised for her FAITH, not her lying. Bad example, that one.

I just wonder if you knew that God created evil (Isaiah 45:7) and God does evil (Amos 3:6). Seems to me you are painting a very one-sided view of an Omnipotent/Omniscient Being (which is not possible to do). To contain all power and all knowledge, you have to contain power to do anything, and to know all things (not only the good stuff).

 

[okinrus]

You are taking Amos out of context. By evil Amos is refering to plagues etc. In other words punishment. God created evil but does not do evil. Your judgement about stealing and murdering is wrong. God cannot steal because he owns everything. And God gave Noah all the animals for food. If he did not give Noah authority to kill the animals then killing animals would be a sin. So it's in God's authority to kill men.

You have to define sin as an "IMMORAL ACTION." You cannot define sin as abitrary things like "lie, kill, steal." There are many instances when such actions would generate a moral good, and would be the greater choice. And you WOULD be held accountable to God if you did not to the right thing at that instance and lie!

Perhaps but in most of the situations it would show some lack of faith. We have to pray and hope that the holy spirit and angels are with us to deliver us from this sort of temptation. If you take this to far then you could say that Peter did not sin because he saved others from murdering himself. Lying about your faith is always going to be a sin.

 

[.Ant]

Re: bball

Re: bball

Originally posted by add yasaf
Is it right to fake someone out when playing basketball. Make it look like you are going one way, and then go the other? of course it is. It is for the greater good, winning!

That is "the ends justify the means", which can be used to justify any sin. It is of course totally against biblical principle.

The reason it's right to fake when playing basketball is that all parties have agreed for you to be "deceptive" this way, as part of the rules of the game. Because everyone is happy for you to do this, and you are not hurting anyone in anyway, you are not actually being deceptive.

Of course, were you to lie in order to help you win the game, you would be sinning.