ARCHIVE: Lying is never righteous!

[cirisme]

I had hesitations about posting this, but here goes nothing!



Contrary to popular opinion... lying is never righteous.

When the King of Jericho came to Rahab telling her to expose the Israeli spies, she said not one word of untruth...

The king of Jericho sent to Rahab, saying, Bring forth the men who are come to you, who have entered into your house; for they have come to search out all the land.
The woman took the two men, and hid them; and she said, Yes, the men came to me, but I didn't know whence they were -Joshua 2:3, 4

The spies were protected! And without a lie.

In fact, lying is constantly forbidden and shamed...

A certain servant girl saw him as he sat in the light, and looking intently at him, said, "This man also was with him." He denied Jesus, saying, "Woman, I don't know him." After a little while someone else saw him, and said, "You also are one of them!" But Peter answered, "Man, I am not!" After about one hour passed, another confidently affirmed, saying, "Truly this man also was with him, for he is a Galilean!" But Peter said, "Man, I don't know what you are talking about!" Immediately, while he was still speaking, a rooster crowed. The Lord turned, and looked at Peter. Then Peter remembered the Lord's word, how he said to him, "Before the rooster crows you will deny me three times." He went out, and wept bitterly.
-Luke 22:56-62

Jesus also said not to plan what you are going to say.

No thinking of the consequences of what you're about to say... no planning on how you're going to explain things... no planning escapes... no planning:

When they lead you away and deliver you up, don't be anxious beforehand, or premeditate what you will say, but say whatever will be given you in that hour. For it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. -Mark 13:11

And we all know... let every man be a liar, but God true.(Romans 3:4)

Any Christian should see lying as blasphemy, because if the Holy Spirit is the one speaking, and God is true, is it not blasphemy?

Jesus is truth...

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me. -John 14:6

If Jesus is the truth, then anything contrary to the truth is contrary to Christ!

Lying is trusting in yourself...

Truth is saying that you have enough faith to put it in God's hands.

So, the question then becomes, are you trusting in man... or God?

I will leave on this final thought...

So that with good courage we say, "The Lord is my helper. I will not fear. What can man do to me?" -Hebrews 13:6

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

What about the midwives who lied about why they didn't kill the Hebrews babies in Egypt.. I am sorry but I don't agree with that blanket statement. And I think you are splitting hairs with Rahab... she lied.

 

[cirisme]

What about the midwives who lied about why they didn't kill the Hebrews babies in Egypt..

And what about it? What about the sorcery, the pagan ideas, the idols, etc that are recorded in scripture? Just because it's recorded, does not mean it is approved.

And I think you are splitting hairs with Rahab... she lied.

Where?

 

[billwald]

Gos misquoted Sarah to Abraham.


Gen 18:11-13

12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
13 And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
(KJV)

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Rahab did in fact lie. You only quoted part of this passage. Here is the entire thing with the lie in bold.

Then the woman took the two men and hid them. So she said, “Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they were from. And it happened as the gate was being shut, when it was dark, that the men went out. Where the men went I do not know; pursue them quickly, for you may overtake them.” (But she had brought them up to the roof and hidden them with the stalks of flax, which she had laid in order on the roof.) Then the men pursued them by the road to the Jordan, to the fords. And as soon as those who pursued them had gone out, they shut the gate.

No matter how you slice it, that is an outright lie.

 

[Mr Miacca]

Lying is never righteous!

I wonder if the surviving members of the Frank family would agree with that? When the Tenbooms lied to the Nazis to protect them from being slaughtered. Or any other Jews who were protected by gentiles.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Now onto the midwives

Now onto the midwives

When I had asked about the midwives, you said,

And what about it? What about the sorcery, the pagan ideas, the idols, etc that are recorded in scripture? Just because it's recorded, does not mean it is approved.

That was knee-jerk reaction, you really should have consulted the text first.... which is as follows:

But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the male children alive. So the king of Egypt called for the midwives and said to them, “Why have you done this thing, and saved the male children alive?” And the midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women; for they are lively and give birth before the midwives come to them.”
Therefore God dealt well with the midwives, and the people multiplied and grew very mighty. And so it was, because the midwives feared God, that He provided households for them.

We can split hairs and say that God was only rewarding their fear of Him, and that is true, but equally true is the fact that their acts which resulted from their fear is depicted in a favorable light.

 

[Mr Miacca]

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
Rahab did in fact lie. You only quoted part of this passage. Here is the entire thing with the lie in bold.

Then the woman took the two men and hid them. So she said, “Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they were from. And it happened as the gate was being shut, when it was dark, that the men went out. Where the men went I do not know; pursue them quickly, for you may overtake them.” (But she had brought them up to the roof and hidden them with the stalks of flax, which she had laid in order on the roof.) Then the men pursued them by the road to the Jordan, to the fords. And as soon as those who pursued them had gone out, they shut the gate.

No matter how you slice it, that is an outright lie.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but isn't there a Rahab in Jesus' family tree?

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Of course she is... and so was David who was a murderer, and so were a lot of people, ALL of whom were sinners.... go figure.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

The fact is that the Bible shows a "hierarchy of morals" in active effect. When confronted with a certain decisional crisis, one must choose the "lesser of two evils" (by one point of view) or even the "greater of two goods" if a choice MUST be made. This does not smack of situational ethics or relativism as who think too shallowly may surmise, for an absolute standard must underlie such a hierarchy for their to be an unchangeable hierarchy that makes any cogent sense.

 

[cirisme]

<sigh>

I'm not saying that if God leads you to do it in an extreme circumstance that you shouldn't do it, what I'm saying is don't worry about what you're going to say(Mark 13:11) and if you do think God tells you to do it, don't try to slice it as being some righteous hero.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

God commended the behavior of both Rahab and the midwives. That is a fact. They behaved righteously in the situations in which they were faced. We cannot have a view of the Bible and ethics that lacks depth or we are guilty of the same shallow end of the pool disease that afflicts sceptics who see contradictions within verses of each other.

 

[Poly]

Where else in the bible does God speak of lying other than where He says not to bear false witness concerning your neighbor? This really just narrows down a specific type of a lie.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

There are many, many places... too many to list. If you have a concordance, just look up "lie" "lying" "falsehood" etc.

 

[billwald]

Should be obvious that preserving human life is more important than preserving the truth. Standard example: NAZI demands citizen tell him if there are Jews in the house.

 

[ddevonb]

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
The fact is that the Bible shows a "hierarchy of morals" in active effect. When confronted with a certain decisional crisis, one must choose the "lesser of two evils" (by one point of view) or even the "greater of two goods" if a choice MUST be made. This does not smack of situational ethics or relativism as who think too shallowly may surmise, for an absolute standard must underlie such a hierarchy for their to be an unchangeable hierarchy that makes any cogent sense.

Dee Dee, I would respectfully disagree with this premise. God never asks us to chose between two immoral acts.
Simply certain acts can be righteous or evil depending on the circumstances.
Giving false testimony against someone is evil. Lying to protect an innocent person from harm by an evil person is righteous. It is not a matter of immoral and less immoral.
If you murdered someone it is evil, but if you killed someone while protecting your family or self from that person...it is righteous.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

We are saying the same thing in two different ways I think.

 

[Poly]

There are many, many places... too many to list. If you have a concordance, just look up "lie" "lying" "falsehood" etc.

Sorry, my bad. I meant to ask where in the bible does it speak of lying being a sin other than bearing false witness against a neighbor.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Actually that is what I meant... it is said to be a sin in multiple places other than that Decalogue. In Proverbs alone it is mentioned numerous times.

 

[bill betzler]

One lie does not a liar make. But if you become a liar there is no place in heaven for you. Also, the midwives did bare false witness against the Hebrew women in that they said that the women were quick in child bearing when they were not.

God pays those who work for him. The midwives were rewarded for saving the babies. The lie to pharaoh was to save their own skin. No where in the scriptures are we told that it is acceptable to lie to save our lives. The saving of our lives is not worth the sin.

This story does not justify lying.