ARCHIVE: Is it ever right to deny Christ?
- Thread starter Freak
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Pilgrimagain
Guest
I was wondering that myself. I was trying to find something in context that would preclude it as instructive or directive for us but I am not sure that I can.
Possible this is pretext at work?
Possible this is pretext at work?
I will answer as long as you promise not to say I haven't answered.
Two MAJOR points....
POINT 1: Luke 12 is NOT in the dispensation of grace. Those under the covenant of circumcision could indeed lose their salvation.
But even then I do not think Luke 12 would apply to our VERY specify situation which is why I have not been arguing from a "grace" position.
Luke 12:1 In the meantime, when an innumerable multitude of people had gathered together, so that they trampled one another, He began to say to His disciples first of all, “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. 2 “For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, nor hidden that will not be known. 3 “Therefore whatever you have spoken in the dark will be heard in the light, and what you have spoken in the ear in inner rooms will be proclaimed on the housetops.
NOTE... Above Jesus is explaining that God know's our hearts, our intentions! You can't profess Jesus in public yet deny Him (for real) in private. This really makes my point, that God would know if we were TRULY denying Him or if we were merely ACTING to thwart an evil wicked man at our door.
4 “And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 “But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him! 6 “Are not five sparrows sold for two copper coins? And not one of them is forgotten before God. 7 “But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. 8 “Also I say to you, whoever confesses Me before men, him the Son of Man also will confess before the angels of God. 9 “But he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.
NOTE... If a man lives his life in denial of Christ he will be denied by Christ. No argument here.
10 “And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven. 11
NOTE... From here on Jesus begins to refer specifically to His followers.
“Now when they bring you to the synagogues and magistrates and authorities, do not worry about how or what you should answer, or what you should say. 12 “For the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”
NOTE... Jesus is referring to when His followers are brought before the leaders of the "synagogues and magistrates and authorities", which does not have a specific application to a wicked lunatic smashing through our door to murder our families.
Furthermore... “For the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”. means that if you are lead by the Holy Spirit God will help you say the right thing at the right time. The Holy Spirit may very well move you to deceive as many did in the Bible.
In conclusion.... Luke 12 in NOW WAY is applicable to the specific situation we have been discussing.
Knight,
Thank you for your response.
[Dee Dee]Now to destroy it.[/Dee Dee]
The first problem is that you say two major points, but make only the one obvious reference to a point. I am just pointing that out as a stylistic issue, think of it as me being overly picky.
4 “And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 “But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him! 6 “Are not five sparrows sold for two copper coins? And not one of them is forgotten before God. 7 “But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. 8 “Also I say to you, whoever confesses Me before men, him the Son of Man also will confess before the angels of God. 9 “But he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.
The text specifically says "confesses" and "denies," both of which are VERBAL. I have already shown you from BDAG in another thread how denial is verbal unless it carries an object of action with it.
I would also like to reiterate my point that this is unlimited in terms of person, that it says "whoever" meaning ANYBODY in ANY circumstance. There is no circumstancial limitation within these verses (1-9).
After 10, you say:
“Now when they bring you to the synagogues and magistrates and authorities, do not worry about how or what you should answer, or what you should say. 12 “For the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”
In other words, Jesus is linking 11 with 10 et all only tenuously, continuing the theme but not the argument.
For that matter, verse 10 clearly tells you that a subject other than denial has come to His mind, since blasphemy is not in fact denial (though one could question this).
All in all, I think Knight does not have a real leg to stand on. He must predetermine who Jesus is talking to in order to make his point. He assumes that 4-9 refers to denial by action, but that is not what the verses say. Finally, he makes the false conclusion that 11 is written only to the disciples.
ASIDE
To be honest, the disciples in Luke means all followers of Christ, but that is a side issue.
Thank you for your response.
[Dee Dee]Now to destroy it.[/Dee Dee]
The first problem is that you say two major points, but make only the one obvious reference to a point. I am just pointing that out as a stylistic issue, think of it as me being overly picky.
4 “And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 “But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him! 6 “Are not five sparrows sold for two copper coins? And not one of them is forgotten before God. 7 “But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. 8 “Also I say to you, whoever confesses Me before men, him the Son of Man also will confess before the angels of God. 9 “But he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.
Your argument here is already problematic. you are assuming that it means denial by actions, not verbal denial. You cannot assume this without proving it from the text since this is in fact what the debate is about.
The text specifically says "confesses" and "denies," both of which are VERBAL. I have already shown you from BDAG in another thread how denial is verbal unless it carries an object of action with it.
I would also like to reiterate my point that this is unlimited in terms of person, that it says "whoever" meaning ANYBODY in ANY circumstance. There is no circumstancial limitation within these verses (1-9).
After 10, you say:
This is unfounded. How can you make such a claim? There is no defense for this reading at all as far as I can tell. Nowhere in the following section does Jesus limit this in such a way.
“Now when they bring you to the synagogues and magistrates and authorities, do not worry about how or what you should answer, or what you should say. 12 “For the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”
That is quite true. However, it is beside the point. The beginning of verse 11 starts with hOTAN DE, which strangely enough is a very strong contrastive, meaning that what comes before it is only linked in subject matter, and this is making a clean break with it in terms of what it is teaching (it is also used in parables as a break between the parable and the meaning).
In other words, Jesus is linking 11 with 10 et all only tenuously, continuing the theme but not the argument.
For that matter, verse 10 clearly tells you that a subject other than denial has come to His mind, since blasphemy is not in fact denial (though one could question this).
All in all, I think Knight does not have a real leg to stand on. He must predetermine who Jesus is talking to in order to make his point. He assumes that 4-9 refers to denial by action, but that is not what the verses say. Finally, he makes the false conclusion that 11 is written only to the disciples.
ASIDE
To be honest, the disciples in Luke means all followers of Christ, but that is a side issue.
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Yxboom
Guest
So if you are held up, tied to a chair with duct tape over your mouth and you are asked if you are a Christian you can write a denial and be absolved of guilt, sway the evil doers and save your family......just as long as you don't say it. That is what Luke 12 is all about anyway..........
Your right, I should have put a "POINT 2" right before I began to deconstruct the verses. My bad. But I also think your being a tad "picky".
You continue...
No that isn't my point at all. For some reason Jaltus you have a hard time understanding the nature of the debate. I will assume that it is my fault for not explaining things well enough. The point is that Jesus is talking about if a man denies Christ, that man will be denied! NOT if a believer denies Christ. Jesus is talking in general terms and says..."whoever confesses Me before men, him the Son of Man also will confess before the angels of God." Followed by..."But he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God."
In essence Jesus is saying the same thing that is said in...
John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
You continue...
Again you are way off the course of the debate. I am not arguing anything about verbal or non-verbal, furthermore the beginning part of Luke 12 would make that argument irrelevant in that God knows our hearts and minds, it wouldn't need to be verbal.
You continue...
EXACTLY!!!! Whoever denies Christ as Savior remains in his sin. I am not arguing that.
You continue...
All in all I think you are lost and have missed the point of this debate.
ROTHFL!!!! IPMP....
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Dee Dee Warren
Guest
Yep.
[Dee Dee]More legalistic straining at gnats.[/Dee Dee]
[Dee Dee impersonating Jaltus] As long as you don't say it - regardless of whether you mean it - you are fine. Of course, don't make me be consistent for then in Romans 10, I would have to say that a mute cannot be saved for they cannot confess Christ with their mouth. This fits right in with my idea that it is perfectly fine to deceive someone as long as you find a way to use a true statement to do it.[/impersonation]
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Pilgrimagain
Guest
You have asserted this but you have not proven it. That's were I'm in the dark.
You continue...
That is not way off, the essence of what we have been talking about is the difference between a verbal denial or heart one. Your whole contention has been that a verbal denial is not the same as a heart denial.
I still fail to see how you have proved that Luke is not applicable to us to day or to believers in general. It seems you have assumed that based on your own leanings.
My suspicion is, since I know you are a true man of faith (one I admire for his zeal), that confronted with such a situation (which honestly none of us ever will be in all likly hood) you might want to deny it but that denial would stick in your throat because you would not be able to deny, even in deception what is the truest part of you.
Thanks Pilgrim, I understand your point but I think the best response is....
To assume the verse means anything OTHER than what it actually says is artificially reading more into the verse than what is really in the verse.
In other words.....
“Also I say to you, whoever confesses Me before men, him the Son of Man also will confess before the angels of God. 9 “But he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.
Simply means what it says!!!
If a man denies Christ that man will be denied! The man in denial will remain in his sin and die an unbeliever.
I agree with that 100%!!
You continue...
Yea, thats a good point... none of us REALLY know how we would respond if the situation REALLY presented itself (heaven forbid).
But hypothetically I think God would rather we thwart the evil lunatic than let him murder our kids, ourselves and then possibly our neighbors.
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Pilgrimagain
Guest
Ok I agree with the verse you posted, but by that same logic you have to use only what the scripture says in Luke. It says nothing about confessing for faith, it simply says to everyone standing there what a denial will mean.
That was Luke.
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Pilgrimagain
Guest
Wait a minute, what was the other verse we were comparing that to?
Freak
New member
Knight, you said: In other words.....
“Also I say to you, whoever confesses Me before men, him the Son of Man also will confess before the angels of God. 9 “But he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.
Simply means what it says!!!
If a man denies Christ that man will be denied! The man in denial will remain in his sin and die an unbeliever.
I agree with that 100%!!
Well, if someone denys Christ, I would then question their salvation then.
ibowatjesusfeet
Cosmic Redneck
Denial of Christ is the only unforgivavle sin. What I mean by this is those who continually deny Christ until the day they die. However, like all other sins, once a person asks for forgiveness, they are forgiven.
I've done some pretty bad things in my twenty-one years, but I can tell you this much: the Love and Forgiveness of Christ and God is the only thing that kept me from offing myself when things got bad. I used to deny Jesus Christ, but I thank Him for his Grace.
I've done some pretty bad things in my twenty-one years, but I can tell you this much: the Love and Forgiveness of Christ and God is the only thing that kept me from offing myself when things got bad. I used to deny Jesus Christ, but I thank Him for his Grace.
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Dee Dee Warren
Guest
There is something here that keeps coming up that is deflecting somewhat from the main issue... or maybe is more of a secondary issue. Many have agreed that the "denial" spoken of in this disputed verses is referring to outright lifelong unbelief, but still believe it is wrong to ever "act" like they are denying Christ, but such a thing could be forgiven. This misses the point though of Knight's scenario... he is clearly saying that in doing such a thing, it is not a matter of whether or not it is forgiveable by God because the position that is being taken is that NOTHING WRONG WAS DONE, thus it is not an act for which forgiveness would need to be asked. This is the main point here.
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Pilgrimagain
Guest
Judas never asked for forgiveness.
The cool thing about Peter's story is what happens between him and Christ before Christ leaves us the last time. Walking around the fire, Peter is given the opportunity by Christ to thrice affirm his faith and belonging and love. I think this is one of the greatest illustrations of Grace we have in the Bible. Not only because of the forgivness given to Peter but also because Christ gives Peter the picture of his responsability now that he knows who and whose he is.
The cool thing about Peter's story is what happens between him and Christ before Christ leaves us the last time. Walking around the fire, Peter is given the opportunity by Christ to thrice affirm his faith and belonging and love. I think this is one of the greatest illustrations of Grace we have in the Bible. Not only because of the forgivness given to Peter but also because Christ gives Peter the picture of his responsability now that he knows who and whose he is.
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Pilgrimagain
Guest
Oh, and Judas never actually denies Christ in the Biblical narrative, he betrays him. Interesting difference.