A Saviour unto Israel

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Ben Masada

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Paul is relating another aspect of the resurrection of Christ, at the same time that he is affirming what His resurrection had settled as to His having been of the seed of David, Acts 2; Romans 1; 2 Tim. 2.

Paul is asserting that God had kept an aspect of the resurrection of Christ hidden - an aspect that would make possible how God would also reclaim those fallen Heavenly places; 1 Cor. 2:7-8; Eph. 1:10; Eph. 6:12.

It was exactly this that Paul revealed to his disciple Timothy in 2:8 that Jesus was from the lineage of David and that he had resurrected. This means that Jesus was neither the Messiah nor resurrected. Otherwise, he would not have revealed it as a secret.
 

Danoh

New member
It was exactly this that Paul revealed to his disciple Timothy in 2:8 that Jesus was from the lineage of David and that he had resurrected. This means that Jesus was neither the Messiah nor resurrected. Otherwise, he would not have revealed it as a secret.

That is not the secret.
 

Ben Masada

New member
That is not the secret.

Perhaps because you did not read the text. Here is how it is written: "Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel." Why according to his gospel? How about the other gospels, what did they say about Jesus being the Messiah or resurrected? Obviously, if that was according to the gospel of Paul, it would not be according to the other gospels. For instance, the gospel of the apostles of Jesus which according to Paul, seemed to be about a different Jesus and, for that matter, Paul considered them as false apostles. (II Cor. 11:4-6, 13)
 

Danoh

New member
Perhaps because you did not read the text. Here is how it is written: "Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel." Why according to his gospel? How about the other gospels, what did they say about Jesus being the Messiah or resurrected? Obviously, if that was according to the gospel of Paul, it would not be according to the other gospels. For instance, the gospel of the apostles of Jesus which according to Paul, seemed to be about a different Jesus and, for that matter, Paul considered them as false apostles. (II Cor. 11:4-6, 13)

I forgot to ask you - so what did you think of the book; did you ever finish it?
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Danoh,
would you please knock it off about your books when you chewed me out for a year about reading books?

Gal 3 does just fine without you or them.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
All you did was point your "one size fits all" bias all over Scriptures that are not even speaking of the same issues, and forced them into saying the same thing.

Interplanner commended you because he too hasn't a clue what Romans 9-11 is actually all about.

Case in point; this here - Romans 9's:

1. I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2. That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4. Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5. Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Is speaking of this here - "my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4. Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5. Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

In relation to this here - 1. I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2. That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

He is speaking about Israel, but you have twisted all this that it fit your bias.

He has just finished eight chapters dealing with the issue of God's New Agency; the Body of Christ, and now turns to an issue he has to deal with - the issue of what has become of God's agency: Israel, that it looks as if it is over for that nation.

He then proceeds to deal with the answer to that; to what things appear to look like as concerning Israel, that it appears God is through with His plans and purpose in Himself as to them.

He then goes into that:

6. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

You see those 11 words - "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect."

He is saying that although it looks like all is lost for Israel, such is not the case; that it is "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect."

That though such was the case with many, such was not the case with all - "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"

Just as all who were the seed of Abraham, were not the children of the promise; in other words, just as only those who were the seed of that promised child: Isaac, were the seed.

8. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

He is illustrating a principle or general rule of thumb by which we Gentiles - who actually take His Word "as it is written" - can know what all was going on as to Israel; that we not end up wise in our own conceits out of our ignorance of this issue and conclude that as far as God's plans and purpose as to this here:

4. Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

"...the word of God hath taken none effect."

This is an issue Paul takes up three chapters laying out the truth of, but that you and yours completely twist into some thing else altogether.

One principle is that the Israelites consisted of two kinds - all Israel, and, their believing remnant - Romans 11:

7. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Note - "Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."

Israel that was not Israel, hath not obtained it - their election was Israel; they obtained it - the rest - Israel that was not Israel, were blinded.

Romans 3:

1. What advantage then hath the Jew? Or what profit is there of circumcision?
2. Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3. For what if some did not believe? Shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

What faith of God? This issue of the status of God's plans and purpose as to Israel that Paul will expand greatly on in Romans 9-11.

Anyone without an ax to grind - who simply takes the passages as Paul has laid them out, cannot but conclude this very short synopsis, is what Paul is talking about, and about to expand greatly on.


The reason the Word of God is not voided is because of the fulfillment in another Israel that includes some from among the nations.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
The Mother of us all !

The Mother of us all !

Gal 4:26

But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Believe it or not, this applies to the mostly Gentile Church, for Paul is drawing here from a OT Prophecy out of Isa 54:1-3

Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the Lord.

2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;

3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Cp

Gal 4:26-27

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

The Church under the NT, the Bride of Christ shall have more children than under the OT, this will be due to an large influx or A flowing in of Gentiles being converted by the Gospel, and so fulfilling the Abrahamic Covenant promise of Gen 17:5

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

And so the spiritual children of Abraham [people of faith] under the New Covenant, among the Gentiles, have in type Sarah as their Mother, who typifies the heavenly Jerusalem in contrast to the earthly jerusalem under the OC ! Just as Abraham is the Father of us all [The Spiritual seed of both jews and gentiles Rom 4:16], his Wife Sarah, typifying the Heavenly Jerusalm is the Mother of us all Gal 4:26

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
There was a neo-Judaism in that area. I think it would be safe to say that the % of Jews at both Galatia and Colossae were higher than usual.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Israel after the flesh are not the children of God !

Israel after the flesh are not the children of God !

Rom 9:6-8

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

If we read scripture with an honest heart, it is seen that there are Two Israels, and not one in this passage and particularly in Vs 6, which makes the distinction between the Two Israels, one being Israel from Vs 8 Abraham's natural descendants aafter the flesh, and Israels spiritual descendants according to God's Promise, typified by Isaac Abrahams child of promise Vs 7 !

Now this Israel which constitute Abrahams children after the flesh, they are not the children of God or Promise, they are liken Ishmaels as compared to Isaac !

They are the same ones Paul writes of here as Israel after the flesh 1 Cor 10:18

18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

And so with logical inference [ The act of reasoning from factual knowledge or evidence] guided by the principles of scripture, then we can conclude that there is an Israel after the Spirit, which is the Israel of God Paul points out here Gal 6:15-16

15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

And also the principle is set forth of Two Israels in the analogy of Isaac and Ishmael where it says Gal 4:29

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Where in this context National Israel after the flesh is typfied by Ishmael and his mother hagar, and Israel after the Spirit is typified by Isaac[The Heir and child of promise] and his Mother Sarah.

This Truth of Two Israels had been a Mystery hidden in Christ, but to be disclosed in NT Times at the coming of the Spirit of Promise from Christ !

So it is with natural israel according to the flesh, as it was with ishmael and his mother, as saith the Words of Sarah Gal 4:30

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

From Gen 21:10

Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
 
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Interplanner

Well-known member
yes, the Israel of the promise is how the unbelief of the ethnos Israel is resolved by Paul. It is not resolved by a future moment in time when all of the ethnos believe. In fact, those who don't believe are disinherited.
 

Nanja

Well-known member
Rom 9:6-8

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

If we read scripture with an honest heart, it is seen that there are Two Israels, and not one in this passage and particularly in Vs 6, which makes the distinction between the Two Israels, one being Israel from Vs 8 Abraham's natural descendants aafter the flesh, and Israels spiritual descendants according to God's Promise, typified by Isaac Abrahams child of promise Vs 7 !

Now this Israel which constitute Abrahams children after the flesh, they are not the children of God or Promise, they are liken Ishmaels as compared to Isaac !

They are the same ones Paul writes of here as Israel after the flesh 1 Cor 10:18

18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

And so with logical inference [ The act of reasoning from factual knowledge or evidence] guided by the principles of scripture, then we can conclude that there is an Israel after the Spirit, which is the Israel of God Paul points out here Gal 6:15-16

15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

And also the principle is set forth of Two Israels in the analogy of Isaac and Ishmael where it says Gal 4:29

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Where in this context National Israel after the flesh is typfied by Ishmael and his mother hagar, and Israel after the Spirit is typified by Isaac[The Heir and child of promise] and his Mother Sarah.

This Truth of Two Israels had been a Mystery hidden in Christ, but to be disclosed in NT Times at the coming of the Spirit of Promise from Christ !

So it is with natural israel according to the flesh, as it was with ishmael and his mother, as saith the Words of Sarah Gal 4:30

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

From Gen 21:10

Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.


Perfect illustration of the Two Israels!


The Promise of Salvation can only apply to an ethnic jew, if God, by His Spiritual Power
has given him Spiritual Life Ezek 36:26-27, just as He worked His Supernatural Power
in the Miracle birth of Isaac, the Chosen Seed Eph. 1:4; 2Tim. 1:9;
The Israel that God Loved John 3:16, Jew or Gentile: The Seed of Christ Is. 53:10.

Is. 45:17
But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation:
ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Is. 41:8
But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

~~~~~
 

beloved57

Well-known member

Perfect illustration of the Two Israels!


The Promise of Salvation can only apply to an ethnic jew, if God, by His Spiritual Power
has given him Spiritual Life Ezek 36:26-27, just as He worked His Supernatural Power
in the Miracle birth of Isaac, the Chosen Seed Eph. 1:4; 2Tim. 1:9;
The Israel that God Loved John 3:16, Jew or Gentile: The Seed of Christ Is. 53:10.

Is. 45:17
But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation:
ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Is. 41:8
But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

~~~~~

Amen!
 

beloved57

Well-known member
All Israel shall be saved in the Lord !

All Israel shall be saved in the Lord !

Isa 45:17

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

God never promised to save all mankind, but only a special portion of it, which portion is called Israel. Salvation/Eternal Life is premised upon a Promise Titus 1:1-2

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

2 Tim 2:10

Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation[which is promised] which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Salvation is based upon God's Promise and not the freewill of man, and thats why we have the scripture Isa 45:17, as well as Acts 13:23

23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Which also affirms that Salvation in the Lord, that God has Promised is to a specific people, a remnant of mankind, So Paul states it clear, who did God raise Jesus, according to Promise a Saviour unto ?

Does it read the whole world without exception ? NO, it reads unto Israel, which are the Elect of God, which are His People ! See Ps 78:71;135:12;148:14;Lk 1:68 !

Paul understanding Gods Promise to save all Israel and the Mystery regarding it, writes Rom 11:25-26

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

But what does it mean by All Israel here ? It does not mean all Israel as a physical nation, or an ethnic people, that thought is nullified , invalidated by what he wrote earlier in Chapter 9 of Romans here Rom 9:27

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel[physical descendants] be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Only a remnant out of all the physical descendants of Israel, or Abrahams children according to the flesh, shall be saved, which invalidates any chance of all of them without exception ever being saved !

But the All here includes the Mystery, it includes a calling out of the Gentiles to complete the Promise of " All Israel shall be saved" which is Pauls point in Rom 11:25-26, by bringing in the fulness of the Elect Gentiles, in that manner, all Israel shall be saved, in line with Gods Promise Isa 45:17

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
 

Nanja

Well-known member
Isa 45:17

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

God never promised to save all mankind, but only a special portion of it, which portion is called Israel. Salvation/Eternal Life is premised upon a Promise Titus 1:1-2

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

2 Tim 2:10

Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation[which is promised] which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Salvation is based upon God's Promise and not the freewill of man, and thats why we have the scripture Isa 45:17, as well as Acts 13:23

23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Which also affirms that Salvation in the Lord, that God has Promised is to a specific people, a remnant of mankind, So Paul states it clear, who did God raise Jesus, according to Promise a Saviour unto ?

Does it read the whole world without exception ? NO, it reads unto Israel, which are the Elect of God, which are His People ! See Ps 78:71;135:12;148:14;Lk 1:68 !

Paul understanding Gods Promise to save all Israel and the Mystery regarding it, writes Rom 11:25-26

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

But what does it mean by All Israel here ? It does not mean all Israel as a physical nation, or an ethnic people, that thought is nullified , invalidated by what he wrote earlier in Chapter 9 of Romans here Rom 9:27

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel[physical descendants] be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Only a remnant out of all the physical descendants of Israel, or Abrahams children according to the flesh, shall be saved, which invalidates any chance of all of them without exception ever being saved !

But the All here includes the Mystery, it includes a calling out of the Gentiles to complete the Promise of " All Israel shall be saved" which is Pauls point in Rom 11:25-26, by bringing in the fulness of the Elect Gentiles, in that manner, all Israel shall be saved, in line with Gods Promise Isa 45:17

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.


Amen to this very enlightening post!

Is. 45:17 declares All Israel shall be Saved, because God already has chosen and predestined each one
according to His Purpose and Grace before time began. All the ones He had given to the Son to die for
He shall raise up on the Last Day John 6:39. The same are God's Vessels of Mercy Gal. 6:16; Rom. 9:23;
the only portion of humanity, a remnant, who are the recipients of His Grace and Love: Israel Is. 45:17!

~~~~~
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Amen to this very enlightening post!

Is. 45:17 declares All Israel shall be Saved, because God already has chosen and predestined each one
according to His Purpose and Grace before time began. All the ones He had given to the Son to die for
He shall raise up on the Last Day John 6:39. The same are God's Vessels of Mercy Gal. 6:16; Rom. 9:23;
the only portion of humanity, a remnant, who are the recipients of His Grace and Love: Israel Is. 45:17!

~~~~~

You got it!
 

beloved57

Well-known member
They make the Perfect Church !

They make the Perfect Church !

The OT Church [Believers in Christ Pre death] and the NT Church [ Believers in Christ post death] comprise, make up, constitute up the completed Church, the Body of Christ. The OT Church of Believers were not to be made Perfect /Complete apart from the addition of the NT or Covenant Church of Believers as Per Heb 11:40

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they[OT Believers] without us[NT Believers] should not be made perfect.

The Two Companies together make the Perfect Man Eph 4:13

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

See, the Fulness of Christ is made up of Believers in Him from all time, also its the same as that New Man Eph 2:15

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain[OT Believers and NT Believers] one new man, so making peace;
 

Nanja

Well-known member
Lets also consider that the Israelites Paul speaks of in Rom 9:4, to them pertaineth the Adoption Rom 9:4

Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Which is by Jesus Christ and Election in Him Eph 1:4-5

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Its also the Adoption Paul writes of here Gal 4:4-7

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Yet the israelites who were merely the physical seed or descendants of Abraham according to the flesh, they are not the Heirs, they are not the Children of God and inheritor of the Promises Rom 9:8, as was Isaac and those he typified Gal 4:28

28 Now we, brethren[The Church, the Body of Christ], as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Oh by the way, the Spirit of Adoption doesnt make them sons Vs 6, but they were sons/children already, it [The Spirit] only makes their sonship manifested Jn 1:12 !

The Spirit of Adoption bestows upon the children a nature agreeable with their sonship, it makes us meet for our Sonship Inheritance Col 1:12

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

The same Inheritance here Gal 3:18

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

It provides the children with a spiritual heart, will and affections, to Love both the Father and the Son and the True People of God ! Thats the True Israel Ps 73:1

Truly God is good to Israel, even to such as are of a clean heart.

A clean Heart is one with the Spirit of Adoption sent into it Gal 4:6

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

So the Adoption of Rom 9:4 could not apply to natural, physical israelites, they are not the Children of God Rom 9:8 ! Yes it did apply to a small remnant of them, but not because of any physical connection to Abraham, but because of a election of grace connection in Christ !



So True, and beautifully described!

Excellent 3-part study on "Who are the Israelites?" ☺

~~~~~
 
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