A Reply to Dave Miller

[Ecumenicist]

Ok, back to Dave.

BTW Beannie, exact same line of questioning I presented to Nin several
months ago, exact same elusive response. Not off subject, right on the
subject, and Nin knows it.

Dave

 

[Ecumenicist]

First, let's get a clear idea of Christ's words. Mind giving a quote?

I just did a google search on "golden Rule and walking in another's shoes,"
and at least the first 4 pages of hits are relevant articles that connect the
two concepts. Its not hard for the rest of the world to understand what
empathy means, why is it so hard for fundies? DH gave me a red mark saying
I was "demented" for making this common sense connection.

You're all demented. Not your sibling's keepers, that's for sure, the whole
core premise of scripture, old and new testament escapes you. It boggles
the mind. Your god says "don't care about anyone, 'cuz I sure don't. "

The parable of the good Samaritan? Doesn't exist. Love one another? Well,
love others who see things the same as I do, otherwise, hate, ridicule, deride,
demean, arrest and murder.

:bang:

 

[Nineveh]

C'mon dave, were you trying to judge me rightly? Or were you judging me for your own personal pleasure?

I made the statement I did because Nin refuses to answer who Christ presented the Lord's prayer for.

Rather you tried to say I believe I should never repent of anything ever. My witness, which you at first tried to discredit, stated plainly the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sins and I repented and accepted Christ as my Savior. I believe it's your witness of tickled ears that has nothing to do with repentance.

Besides, the Lord's Prayer wasn't being discussed on the thread you were comforting sodmites on.

She's clearly stated in the past that those who accept Christ are
in no need of asking forgiveness any more.

Well isn't that a huge change from "never asking forgiveness for anything ever"? Rather, you have a warped understanding of who needs to repent and why.

God needs forgiving. God commits sins like tsunamis. You need to repent continually for not exibiting the natural out pouring of the Fruits of the Spirit. Yet sodomites can be "made holy" by your ritual. What God calls sin, you won't. What God doesn't call sin, you do.

Christians are forgiven. If we stumble, we ask God's guidence and rest on Him to strengthen us in our faith so we are more resistant to those temptations. Our faith in Christ gets stronger the more we use it. That's a far cry from finding ways to make God "ok" with unrepentant sodomites and idolitors.

The question remains, if Christians never need ask forgiveness, then why would Christ give this prayer, which includes the phrase "forgive our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us?" Who was this prayer given to?

Dave, I've been disinclined to get into the Lord's prayer with you because your exegesis about Judgement, Repentance, Law, Grace, Fruits of the Spirit, Dispensationalism, Human Spirits, The Lake of Fire, Sin, and other things has been so warped I didn't see where your understanding of Christ's prayer would be any better.


I'm still waiting for you to give that golden rule of Christ....

 

[Nineveh]

I just did a google search on "golden Rule and walking in another's shoes," and at least the first 4 pages of hits are relevant articles that connect the
two concepts. Its not hard for the rest of the world to understand what
empathy means, why is it so hard for fundies? DH gave me a red mark saying
I was "demented" for making this common sense connection.

You're all demented. Not your sibling's keepers, that's for sure, the whole
core premise of scripture, old and new testament escapes you. It boggles
the mind. Your god says "don't care about anyone, 'cuz I sure don't. "

What does this have to do with that "Golden Rule of Christ"?

The parable of the good Samaritan? Doesn't exist. Love one another? Well,
love others who see things the same as I do, otherwise, hate, ridicule, deride,
demean, arrest and murder.

And like the resident sodomite, you keep loping off that "Love God with your whole being" part, before you get into the love your neighbor part. You don't get to define Love any more than you get to define sin, dave.

 

[Ecumenicist]

C'mon dave, were you trying to judge me rightly? Or were you judging me for your own personal pleasure?



Rather you tried to say I believe I should never repent of anything ever. My witness, which you at first tried to discredit, stated plainly the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sins and I repented and accepted Christ as my Savior. I believe it's your witness of tickled ears that has nothing to do with repentance.

Besides, the Lord's Prayer wasn't being discussed on the thread you were comforting sodmites on.



Well isn't that a huge change from "never asking forgiveness for anything ever"? Rather, you have a warped understanding of who needs to repent and why.

God needs forgiving. God commits sins like tsunamis. You need to repent continually for not exibiting the natural out pouring of the Fruits of the Spirit. Yet sodomites can be "made holy" by your ritual. What God calls sin, you won't. What God doesn't call sin, you do.

Christians are forgiven. If we stumble, we ask God's guidence and rest on Him to strengthen us in our faith so we are more resistant to those temptations. Our faith in Christ gets stronger the more we use it. That's a far cry from finding ways to make God "ok" with unrepentant sodomites and idolitors.



Dave, I've been disinclined to get into the Lord's prayer with you because your exegesis about Judgement, Repentance, Law, Grace, Fruits of the Spirit, Dispensationalism, Human Spirits, The Lake of Fire, Sin, and other things has been so warped I didn't see where your understanding of Christ's prayer would be any better.


I'm still waiting for you to give that golden rule of Christ....

Your hopeless.... But then again, no one is beyond hope. I shall continue to
pray for you, as you are incapable of recognizing your own sin and asking
forgiveness yourself.

Christ made the Lord's Prayer for everyone, you and I, and even in our
states of repentence, we are called to ask forgiveness daily, even as we
ask for our bread daily. The concept of Humility before God is past you too,
now that you're perfect, I know...

 

[Ecumenicist]

What does this have to do with that "Golden Rule of Christ"?



And like the resident sodomite, you keep loping off that "Love God with your whole being" part, before you ge tinto the love your neighbor part. You don't get to define Love any more than you get to define sin, dave.

How do we express our love for God? As we do unto the least of His children, we
do unto Him. That's how we love God, through loving Others.

 

[Nineveh]

Your hopeless....

You made a false statement about what I believe dave, don't be a coward.

But then again, no one is beyond hope. I shall continue to
pray for you, as you are incapable of recognizing your own sin and asking
forgiveness yourself.

Instead of judging me wrongly, then persisting in your error, why not fess up? Come clean dave.

Christ made the Lord's Prayer for everyone, you and I, and even in our
states of repentence, we are called to ask forgiveness daily, even as we
ask for our bread daily. The concept of Humility before God is past you too,
now that you're perfect, I know...

Dave, once again you exegesis is faulty. Why not go back to step one and understand sin before you start forgiving everyone, including God, for your definitions of it?

 

[Nineveh]

How do we express our love for God?

Humbling ourselves to His understandings is a good place to start.

As we do unto the least of His children, we
do unto Him. That's how we love God, through loving Others.

Much like mocking dave, if you do it for yourself, it's self serving for self righteousness.

First we must come to know the God that defines Love before we can love our neighbors, or else we start "loving" our neighbors with things like "rituals" to cleanse sodomy.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Allright, enlighten me. What are the "proper" interpretations of "sin" and "love,"
from your perspective?

BTW, I did not make a false statement. I did clarify my statement, however. You've
not disagreed nore refuted what I've said, so it stands; since "repenting" you have
never needed nor will you ever need to ask God's forgiveness for anything. And
Christ's words are once again for naught, fallen on deaf ears.

 

[Nineveh]

Allright, enlighten me. What are the "proper" interpretations of "sin" and "love," from your perspective?

From my perspecitve, God is right.

Comforting sin is not showing love to our neighbors. Calling people out of sin is showing Love to our neighbors. How do we define sin? God's Law.

BTW, I did not make a false statement. I did clarify my statement, however. You've not disagreed nore refuted what I've said,

I most certainly have: "you tried to say I believe I should never repent of anything ever. My witness, which you at first tried to discredit, stated plainly the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sins and I repented and accepted Christ as my Savior. I believe it's your witness of tickled ears that has nothing to do with repentance."

so it stands; since "repenting" you have
never needed nor will you ever need to ask God's forgiveness for anything. And
Christ's words are once again for naught, fallen on deaf ears.

Yes, it stands that you are persisting in bearing a false witness.

 

[beanieboy]

BTW Beannie, exact same line of questioning I presented to Nin several
months ago, exact same elusive response. Not off subject, right on the
subject, and Nin knows it.

Dave

Thanks, Dave.

And I have to agree with you.
Rarely have I seen such a hard heart.
But we are merely the sowers of the seed, not the sun nor the rain.

I will pray for Nin myself.

 

[Ecumenicist]

From my perspecitve, God is right.


Yes, it stands that you are persisting in bearing a false witness.

False witness is your speciality, twister of words. I never said the word
"repent."

Dave

 

[Nineveh]

I never said the word "repent."

Speaking of twisting words, what does "ask forgiveness" mean?

 

[Zakath]

Speaking of twisting words, what does "ask forgiveness" mean?

To enquire if someone will forgive you?

 

[Ecumenicist]

Speaking of twisting words, what does "ask forgiveness" mean?

Asking forgiveness is one small piece of the whole process of repentence.

Repentence is the process of turning around, becoming completely re-oriented,
away from sin and the world, towards God and the Kingdom.

Dave

 

[Nineveh]

Asking forgiveness is one small piece of the whole process of repentence.

True, you actually have to be humble and ask forgiveness to be at the place to repent, that is, walk in the ways of God rather than your own. What confuses me abou your theology dave, is what you feel needs to be forgiven, and what doesn't. It seems your standard doesn't agree with God's.

Repentence is the process of turning around, becoming completely re-oriented,
away from sin and the world, towards God and the Kingdom.

Once forgiven, it becomes an issue of walking by faith because the Holy Spirit dwells in you.

After one is humbled and accepts God's standard for their lives, how can the same place themselves in a position of accusing God Himslef of commiting sin, or in a place above God to forgive Him?

 

[Ecumenicist]

True, you actually have to be humble and ask forgiveness to be at the place to repent, that is, walk in the ways of God rather than your own. What confuses me abou your theology dave, is what you feel needs to be forgiven, and what doesn't. It seems your standard doesn't agree with God's.

God's Standard is too high for anyone. Neither of us can even think to articulate
God's standard. Hence the need for Christ.

We are powerless to "walk in teh ways of God."

Once forgiven, it becomes an issue of walking by faith because the Holy Spirit dwells in you.

Once forgiven, the process begins of accepting in Gratitude and Humility the
profound gift of Grace which God gives freely, through Christ. Its in the
process of acceptence and humility that our orientation truly begins to
turn, and that's God's doing, not our own.

After one is humbled and accepts God's standard for their lives, how can the same place themselves in a position of accusing God Himslef of commiting sin, or in a place above God to forgive Him?

The subject is about our need to continue to ask forgiveness as part of the
repentence process, which is a lifetime task. If you want to talk about
forgiving God, that's another thread, but anyone who's lost a loved one
understands exactly what that means. Your inability to grasp the concept of
empathy shows itself again.

Dave

 

[Nineveh]

God's Standard is too high for anyone. Neither of us can even think to articulate God's standard. Hence the need for Christ.

We are powerless to "walk in teh ways of God."

How can you judge His standard if you really can't know it? Rather, I think God makes His standard absolutely clear so we can plainly see our need for Christ. Such is a proper use of the Law.

Once forgiven, the process begins of accepting in Gratitude and Humility the
profound gift of Grace which God gives freely, through Christ. Its in the
process of acceptence and humility that our orientation truly begins to
turn, and that's God's doing, not our own.

Accepting Christ wasn't a process for me, is it for you?

It's not God's doing to cleans an unrepentant sodomite with a ritual.

The subject is about our need to continue to ask forgiveness as part of the
repentence process, which is a lifetime task.

I'm not catholic dave. I didn't think you were either. Being humble when we fall or are in error is one thing, but continually begging God's forgiveness for things He doesn't even call sin is not only redundant, but cheapens repentance/forgiveness. One day I hope you can rest in knowing you have been washed in the blood of the Lamb and the Fruits of the Spirit are a natural outpouring of Christ in you.

If you want to talk about forgiving God, that's another thread, but anyone who's lost a loved one understands exactly what that means.

This goes to the heart of all your judgements dave. Placing onself in a position over God to forgive Him is not a display of humilty. Nor is accusing God of sin. If I am expected to take your council, I need to know it is sound.

Your inability to grasp the concept of empathy shows itself again.

Once again you bear a false witness against me.

 

[Balder]

I'm curious, is it perhaps more appropriate for a Christian, when reflecting on their failings and sins in daily life, to say, "Thank you for your forgiveness this day," than actually asking for it again? I understand the desire to move to a place of "rest" or assurance in the grace of God, where one knows one is loved in such a way that one is not concerned with repairing a breached relationship or asking to be "readmitted" into the circle of God's love, but rather one is motivated to express continual gratefulness for that love. On the other hand, when one does not directly approach God and ask for forgiveness, one also runs the risk of becoming complacent and self-righteous, taking forgiveness for granted and then growing hard towards others who have not made the same "prescribed step" as you. Settling in to an ideological position of "already done" can lead not to a condition of open and responsive "grace-fulness" (grace+gratefulness) but to a kind of intractible self-righteousness.

I can see the value in both approaches, and I think both may help the believer who holds them just as much as they may disorient or "distort" them -- i.e., leading them either to continual feelings of alienation and vulnerability to rejection, or else to a hard smugness that has lost the grace of that which once delivered his or her heart into the cracked open place where something Other shines through.

Peace,
Balder

 

[Delmar]

I'm curious, is it perhaps more appropriate for a Christian, when reflecting on their failings and sins in daily life, to say, "Thank you for your forgiveness this day," than actually asking for it again? .

You are on to something