A problem with open theism (HOF thread)

[Agape4Robin]

"Arise, go to Nineveh the great city, and cry against it, for their wickedness has come up before Me...3:2Arise, go to Nineveh the great city and proclaim to it the proclamation which I am going to tell you...4:2And he prayed to the Lord and said, “Please Lord, was not this what I said while I was still in my own country? Therefore, in order to forestall this I fled to Tarshish, for I knew that Thou art a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, and one who relents concerning calamity," (Jonah 1:2; 3:2; 4:2).

God states in Jeremiah 18:8-9, "if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it." We see that the Lord has said He will not bring judgment if that nation turns from its sin. Nineveh did turn from its sin after Jonah gave them the warning from God.

"Then the people of Nineveh believed in God; and they called a fast and put on sackcloth from the greatest to the least of them. 6When the word reached the king of Nineveh, he arose from his throne, laid aside his robe from him, covered himself with sackcloth, and sat on the ashes. 7And he issued a proclamation and it said, "In Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles: Do not let man, beast, herd, or flock taste a thing. Do not let them eat or drink water. 8"But both man and beast must be covered with sackcloth; and let men call on God earnestly that each may turn from his wicked way and from the violence which is in his hands. 9"Who knows, God may turn and relent, and withdraw His burning anger so that we shall not perish?" (Jonah 3:5-9).

So, you have no claim that this verse proves God changes because He discovers something new -- as in people's repentance. From all eternity, God knew they would repent. He simply ordained the means of that repentance by threatening Nineveh through the prophet Jonah. They repented and God relented.

 

[lee_merrill]

This "warning" theory of yours is not in the text. God did not tell Nineveh that they would be overthrown UNLESS they repent. He did not say that.

The Ninevites understood that, though, and they were right! And that's why Jonah ran!

What He did say was very specific, "40 days and Nineveh will be overthrown."

Then God really changed his overall plan? Then I have some questions...

Why didn't God destroy the Ninevites right away, if that was his plan?

Why did God send Jonah, and spoil his plan?

How can we trust God, if he can take action, and spoil his own plan himself?

How can we say that God didn't lie to the Ninevites, if he threatened unconditional destruction, yet he knew it might not happen?

Why did Jonah seem to have a better grasp of the situation than God did? He thought the Ninevites would probably repent, and thus he ran.

Why did the Ninevites seem to know better than God did? They thought they could repent, and God, apparently, did not.

Why didn't God keep the Ninevites from repenting after Jonah preached to them, like he did with the sons of Eli (1 Sam. 2:25) and with Amaziah (2 Chr. 25:16)?

Now we have to question unconditional God's promises, for the situation may change, and God may have to change his plan.

Also, God may act in a way that spoils his plan, not only may the situation change, and cause a change of plan, but God may do something that wrecks his own plan.

Here God makes a very clear promise to Israel to drive out all these peoples from before them. But make no mistake about it, HE DID NOT DO THIS!

They aren't there now, though, as it turns out, so God did do this, as he promised...

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Poly]

God states in Jeremiah 18:8-9, "if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it."

Here's A4R's interpretation of that verse.

7The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8if (but I don't really "if" because that would imply that the nation might actually play a part in whether or not I do something) that nation against whom I have spoken turns(but realize when I say "turn" I don't really think that it's possible for you to do it since I'm the one who will control your every move) from its evil, I will relent (well, not really since I don't have the power to actually "relent") of the disaster that I thought (pay no attention to this word "thought" since it implies I might change in that I now am thinking something other than what I was thinking before) to bring upon it. 9And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10if(remember now... I don't really mean "if") it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent( :doh: there's that nasty word again) concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

Glad we have ones like A4R who can tell us what God "really" means.

 

[Freak]

Is your God a living God, Freak?

He is NOT only LIVING but perfect & all knowing. It appears your small god is dervived from a Watchtower magazine article. :down:

I have a question for you. What does it mean for God to be perfect and why?

God is absolute perfect in every sense--in His attributes, His character, His essence. Scripture points this out from Genesis to Revelation. Since God is perfect, He knows all things (see 1 John 3:20) and is lacking in nothing.

Question for you (see below)...

God's Word tells us this:

"Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon me, and he told me to say: "This is what the LORD says: That is what you are saying, O house of Israel, but I know what is going through your mind.

Great is our Lord and mighty in power; His understanding has no limit."

Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

His understanding of what might be and what might not be is not limited as His Word points out. He knows all possibilities, realized and unrealized for He knows all.

His understanding has NO LIMITS! Now, please tell me where God is limited, again?

 

[Agape4Robin]

Here's A4R's interpretation of that verse.

7The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8if (but I don't really "if" because that would imply that the nation might actually play a part in whether or not I do something) that nation against whom I have spoken turns(but realize when I say "turn" I don't really think that it's possible for you to do it since I'm the one who will control your every move) from its evil, I will relent (well, not really since I don't have the power to actually "relent") of the disaster that I thought (pay no attention to this word "thought" since it implies I might change in that I now am thinking something other than what I was thinking before) to bring upon it. 9And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10if(remember now... I don't really mean "if") it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent( :doh: there's that nasty word again) concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

Glad we have ones like A4R who can tell us what God "really" means.

Nice way to hit and run.........
That is your interpretation, Poly...you wrote it, you italicised it and then try to pin it on me. Don't put your words in my mouth. I can speak well enough.
BTW your sarcasm is underwhelming................ :yawn:

 

[Agape4Robin]

To all Open Theists....beware of what God has said.


Psalm 73:9-19, "They have set their mouth against the heavens, And their tongue parades through the earth.
10) Therefore his people return to this place, And waters of abundance are drunk by them.
11) They say, ‘How does God know? And is there knowledge with the Most High?’ 12) Behold, these are the wicked; And always at ease, they have increased in wealth…


18) Surely You set them in slippery places; You cast them down to destruction.
19) How they are destroyed in a moment! They are utterly swept away by sudden terrors!"

 

[drbrumley]

God says some things will happen, and they do not.

God says some things will happen, and they do not.

God says some things will happen, and they do not.

Jer 3:6-15 The LORD said also to me in the days of Josiah the king: “Have you seen what backsliding Israel has done? She has gone up on every high mountain and under every green tree, and there played the harlot. 7 “And I said, after she had done all these things, ‘She will return to Me’ But she did not return. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. 8 “Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but went and played the harlot also. 9 “So it came to pass, through her casual harlotry, that she defiled the land and committed adultery with stones and trees. 10 “And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah has not turned to Me with her whole heart, but in pretense,” says the LORD. 11 Then the LORD said to me, “Backsliding Israel has shown herself more righteous than treacherous Judah. 12 “Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say: ‘Return, backsliding Israel,’ says the LORD; ‘I will not cause My anger to fall on you. For I am merciful,’ says the LORD; ‘I will not remain angry forever. 13 Only acknowledge your iniquity, That you have transgressed against the LORD your God, And have scattered your charms To alien deities under every green tree, And you have not obeyed My voice,’ says the LORD. 14 “Return, O backsliding children,” says the LORD; “for I am married to you. I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion. 15 “And I will give you shepherds according to My heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding.

He expected Israel to respond differently to His love. But they didn’t. This is further shown in Isa 5:1-4 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard: My Well-beloved has a vineyard On a very fruitful hill. 2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones, And planted it with the choicest vine. He built a tower in its midst, And also made a winepress in it; So He expected it to bring forth good grapes, But it brought forth wild grapes. 3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. 4 What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?
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You know what Robin and jeremiah and Freak, go argue with God about what scripture says cause it EVIDENT you can't handle biblical truth such as this.

 

[Agape4Robin]

God says some things will happen, and they do not.

Jer 3:6-15 The LORD said also to me in the days of Josiah the king: “Have you seen what backsliding Israel has done? She has gone up on every high mountain and under every green tree, and there played the harlot. 7 “And I said, after she had done all these things, ‘She will return to Me’ But she did not return. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. 8 “Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but went and played the harlot also. 9 “So it came to pass, through her casual harlotry, that she defiled the land and committed adultery with stones and trees. 10 “And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah has not turned to Me with her whole heart, but in pretense,” says the LORD. 11 Then the LORD said to me, “Backsliding Israel has shown herself more righteous than treacherous Judah. 12 “Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say: ‘Return, backsliding Israel,’ says the LORD; ‘I will not cause My anger to fall on you. For I am merciful,’ says the LORD; ‘I will not remain angry forever. 13 Only acknowledge your iniquity, That you have transgressed against the LORD your God, And have scattered your charms To alien deities under every green tree, And you have not obeyed My voice,’ says the LORD. 14 “Return, O backsliding children,” says the LORD; “for I am married to you. I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion. 15 “And I will give you shepherds according to My heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding.

We see here an anthropomorphic expression from God about Israel. God speaks to Israel as a husband speaks to his wife. John Frame sums it up beautifully:

"In Jeremiah 3, God interacts with Israel as a husband with his unfaithful wife....this passage deals with God's relation to Israel in history, not his eternal decrees and eternal foreknowledge. The thrust of the passage is that recent history should have motivated the repentance of Israel and Judah, but in fact they continued their spiritual adultery. As their husband, God had hoped (this hope being an expression of his preceptive will) for something better." - John Frame (Christian apologist)

For clarification, the term Mr. Frame used "preceptive will" is a theological term denoting the will of God that is contrasted with His decretive will. In God's decretive will, God ordains certain things to occur and they will occur. In God's preceptive will, God allows certain things to occur (like the fall, sin, rebellion, sickness, etc.) that are not in His decretive will. Another way to look at it is to say that it is God's "permissive" will; that is, He permits sinful things to occur even though sin is contrary to God's perfect will.
Nevertheless, this passage demonstrates the manner in which God relates to His people in human terms. Therefore, we should expect human type statements.

He expected Israel to respond differently to His love. But they didn’t. This is further shown in Isa 5:1-4 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard: My Well-beloved has a vineyard On a very fruitful hill. 2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones, And planted it with the choicest vine. He built a tower in its midst, And also made a winepress in it; So He expected it to bring forth good grapes, But it brought forth wild grapes. 3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. 4 What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?

Here is a perfect example of anthropomorphism, of where God speaks in human terms. God expects one thing and gets another. Is this an example of God being surprised and learning? No it is not. :nono:
First of all, it is a parable in the form of a song. A parable is meant to illustrate a point not expound doctrine and a song takes much liberty with its words and phrases. Therefore, the poetic license taken in this song need not be construed as God actually being surprised, especially when we realize that God speaks to us in reference to our time frame and uses human emotions and conditions.
We know that from all eternity, God has known all things (1 John 3:20). He is not surprised by anything. So, what we have here is a song, using poetic license, to convey meaning.

You know what Robin and jeremiah and Freak, go argue with God about what scripture says cause it EVIDENT you can't handle biblical truth such as this.

You go argue with Him.....I know how to study the bible and use the principles of hermeneutics as it applies to scripture.

 

[godrulz]

nice dodge. so IF aspects of relativity are true God chooses this limited interaction with time presented by OV, or is under it as a part of an external universe?

Thank you. If aspects of relativity reflect reality, it does not mean the Creator is not distinct from the creation. Time is as fundamental to God as it is to us and the universe. God experiences sequence/duration/succession because He is personal like us. The past, present, and future are distinct to Him and in no way limit Him. I do not understand your point. An everlasting being is not limited by time or space like a mortal being is. God is not limited by creation or physical properties. Time is not a metaphysical issue. It is an aspect of reality for any personal being.

 

[godrulz]

Why did I get bad repped for this? It was an honest question.

It caricatures God as being not much above a man in His knowledge or abilities. It becomes a straw man view.

 

[godrulz]

I am a Christian, not Calvinist, not Arminian, not anything other than a believer and follower of Christ.
Simple......

This is simplistic. Aspects of your theology would fall into one camp or another. Saying you are American does not mean you are denying being part of the human race. We can all make the same claim while believing diametrically opposed views (on non-essentials, I trust).

 

[Jeremiah85]

He expected Israel to respond differently to His love. But they didn’t. This is further shown in Isa 5:1-4 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard: My Well-beloved has a vineyard On a very fruitful hill. 2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones, And planted it with the choicest vine. He built a tower in its midst, And also made a winepress in it; So He expected it to bring forth good grapes, But it brought forth wild grapes. 3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. 4 What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?

I answered this passage earlier in the thread and you ignored my answer. I am disappointed that you canot even take the time to show me where I went off track with this passage and still are rude enough to tell me that I cannot handle biblical truth.

You know what Robin and jeremiah and Freak, go argue with God about what scripture says cause it EVIDENT you can't handle biblical truth such as this.

You believe that God can be wrong so there is not much point in doing this is there? If you ignore valid posts that are brought forth in a civilized manner then you have no right to claim victory. If you wish to believe in a God that can be wrong then so be it. A perfect God and a god that can be wrong are mutually exclusive. You must believe in one or the other. Either you believe in a God that has saved us from Hell or you believe in a god who predicts that we will be saved from hell. Either you believe Jesus when He said: John 10:29 My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand. Or you believe that this prediction might be wrong. A God that can be wrong is no god, but is an imposter who is no better than than the many gods of centuries past who knew no more about the future then we do.

 

[drbrumley]

We see here an anthropomorphic expression from God about Israel. God speaks to Israel as a husband speaks to his wife. John Frame sums it up beautifully:

"In Jeremiah 3, God interacts with Israel as a husband with his unfaithful wife....this passage deals with God's relation to Israel in history, not his eternal decrees and eternal foreknowledge. The thrust of the passage is that recent history should have motivated the repentance of Israel and Judah, but in fact they continued their spiritual adultery. As their husband, God had hoped (this hope being an expression of his preceptive will) for something better." - John Frame (Christian apologist)

For clarification, the term Mr. Frame used "preceptive will" is a theological term denoting the will of God that is contrasted with His decretive will. In God's decretive will, God ordains certain things to occur and they will occur. In God's preceptive will, God allows certain things to occur (like the fall, sin, rebellion, sickness, etc.) that are not in His decretive will. Another way to look at it is to say that it is God's "permissive" will; that is, He permits sinful things to occur even though sin is contrary to God's perfect will.
Nevertheless, this passage demonstrates the manner in which God relates to His people in human terms. Therefore, we should expect human type statements.






Here is a perfect example of anthropomorphism, of where God speaks in human terms. God expects one thing and gets another. Is this an example of God being surprised and learning? No it is not. :nono:
First of all, it is a parable in the form of a song. A parable is meant to illustrate a point not expound doctrine and a song takes much liberty with its words and phrases. Therefore, the poetic license taken in this song need not be construed as God actually being surprised, especially when we realize that God speaks to us in reference to our time frame and uses human emotions and conditions.
We know that from all eternity, God has known all things (1 John 3:20). He is not surprised by anything. So, what we have here is a song, using poetic license, to convey meaning.


You go argue with Him.....I know how to study the bible and use the principles of hermeneutics as it applies to scripture.

Yes, conjure up any excuse you can to dismiss the Word of God. How come you can't believe just a simple , matter of fact statement of God to Jeremiah? Oh I know, it destroys your whole position. This makes like the 4th time your argument has floundered up against Gods Word.

 

[godrulz]

It's not polite to ask a lady her age.......... :nono:

OK. How much do you weigh?


I would not be surprised if you are young and lack the life experience or time to have thoroughly wrestled with all the views and their implications. I am 45 (believer 25 years) and am just scratching the surface.

 

[Agape4Robin]

This is simplistic. Aspects of your theology would fall into one camp or another. Saying you are American does not mean you are denying being part of the human race. We can all make the same claim while believing diametrically opposed views (on non-essentials, I trust).

Quite the opposite....I am (in your example) claiming to be part of the human race, rather than labeling myself as American.

The fact that you consider my answer simplistic is of no consequence to me.

 

[Agape4Robin]

Yes, conjure up any excuse you can to dismiss the Word of God. How come you can't believe just a simple , matter of fact statement of God to Jeremiah? Oh I know, it destroys your whole position. This makes like the 4th time your argument has floundered up against Gods Word.

That's it? That's all you've got? :yawn:

Because you say so? :darwinsm:

 

[drbrumley]

That's it? That's all you've got? :yawn:

Because you say so? :darwinsm:

Earth to Robin, God made the simple precise statement, not DRBrumley.

 

[Agape4Robin]

OK. How much do you weigh?


I would not be surprised if you are young and lack the life experience or time to have thoroughly wrestled with all the views and their implications. I am 45 (believer 25 years) and am just scratching the surface.

You are not that much older than me, and I have been a christian about 28 years.

 

[godrulz]

He is NOT only LIVING but perfect & all knowing. It appears your small god is dervived from a Watchtower magazine article. :down:

God is absolute perfect in every sense--in His attributes, His character, His essence. Scripture points this out from Genesis to Revelation. Since God is perfect, He knows all things (see 1 John 3:20) and is lacking in nothing.

Question for you (see below)...

God's Word tells us this:

"Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon me, and he told me to say: "This is what the LORD says: That is what you are saying, O house of Israel, but I know what is going through your mind.

Great is our Lord and mighty in power; His understanding has no limit."

Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

His understanding of what might be and what might not be is not limited as His Word points out. He knows all possibilities, realized and unrealized for He knows all.

His understanding has NO LIMITS! Now, please tell me where God is limited, again?

God's wisdom and understanding has no limits. Likewise, His being and knowledge is perfect. He knows reality as it is. If the future is partially open, and it is, He knows it as such (possible/probable vs actual/certain).

Open Theism affirms God's perfection and limitless knowledge. The verses you quote affirm that God knows the past and present exhaustively. It does not have to mean He knows the future as certain if it is only possible before it comes into existence. Your verses also refer to present knowledge that we affirm also. They do not have to include future knowledge, unless you read that into the text with a wooden literalism.

I Jn. 3:20 The context refers to God's knowledge of our hearts. This is past and present knowledge that He knows exhaustively. You are extrapolating, based on a preconceived theology, to proof text it as referring to future contingencies. This would contradict other explicit passages that Open Theists take literally, but you must dismiss them as figurative.

 

[Agape4Robin]

Earth to Robin, God made the simple precise statement, not DRBrumley.

You held up those scriptures to hope to prove your OTV, and I shot you down rightly proving holes in your beliefs using hermaneutics and scripture itself. Theology is more than literal reading of scripture, and if you were a real theologian instead of playing one, you would see the error in your "beliefs".

So, what else ya got? :yawn: