A problem with open theism (HOF thread)

[Nathon Detroit]

Not if I understand the term correctly.

Yeah... I am pretty sure none of you are Calvinists unless of course you have been misrepresenting your own theology - which of course would be pretty bizarre. :kookoo:

So Robin why would you use Calvin as a theologian to champion?

 

[Jeremiah85]

Knowing how many times the rooster crowed was knowable?

When Ezekiel prophesied about the destruction of the city of Tyre, was that just a really good guess? Or was it a "prediction?"

God can bring events to pass if He so choses. This concept is very different from God knows ALL events exhaustively.

God's prediction "wrong?" Is God sometimes "wrong?"

Of course!

God chose to give man freewill, and because of that God cannot always predict what we will do yet this is by God's design. He wants it that way.

Sometimes God grieves because His predictions for us fail, yet other times God is joyous because His predictions for us fail (i.e., Nineveh).

I guess the main problem that I have with what you are saying is your assertion that God can be wrong. If God can be wrong then He is not perfect. Is this really what you are saying or did I misunderstand your statement?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I guess the main problem that I have with what you are saying is your assertion that God can be wrong. If God can be wrong then He is not perfect. Is this really what you are saying or did I misunderstand your statement?

Wrong isn't always bad.

Sometimes wrong is good!

When God predicts that we will do awful things God hopes His prediction is wrong. God hopes that we repent and turn to Him.

But the bottom line is God knows that He cannot always accurately predict our actions because He designed us that way and therefore He makes clear that we can sometimes affect His predictions...

Jeremiah 18:8 “if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 “And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 “if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

 

[Poly]

I think he's taken his ball and gone home.....

A4R, Clete has really never been into all the "I know you are but what am I" stuff that you've been spewing. Some people simply won't waste their time with this kind of nonsense. Unfortunately there are ones like you who will use this to their advantage claiming victory and falsely making it look as though their opponent has been defeated when they simply decide to take the high road and end the foolishness.

 

[Jeremiah85]

Wrong isn't always bad.

Sometimes wrong is good!

When God predicts that we will do awful things God hopes His prediction is wrong. God hopes that we repent and turn to Him.

But the bottom line is God knows that He cannot always accurately predict our actions because He designed us that way and therefore He makes clear that we can sometimes affect His predictions...

Could you please quote a verse that says that God predicts something? The passage you have quoted below is speaking about God giving the Nation of Israel the option to repent, not predicting one way or the other what they would do. God is telling them what would happen if they did repent or if they did not repent. And if God can be wrong in a good way can't he be wrong in a bad way?

Jeremiah 18:8 “if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 “And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 “if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Could you please quote a verse that says that God predicts something? The passage you have quoted below is speaking about God giving the Nation of Israel the option to repent, not predicting one way or the other what they would do. God is telling them what would happen if they did repent or if they did not repent. And if God can be wrong in a good way can't he be wrong in a bad way?

Don't ya get it?

God is simply laying out a principle.

Sorta like . . .
Do this... and I will do that. Do that and I will do this.

Lets see this principle in action....

God told Nineveh (through Jonah) that in 40 days they would be overthrown. Yet Nineveh repented and therefore God relented. Some might say God was wrong, and if a person didn't know the principle laid out in Jeremiah it would appear that God was wrong because He didn't have Nineveh overthrown.

But there is no doubt that God's prediction through Jonah DID NOT come to pass because of the freewill actions of the King and people of Nineveh.

Jonah 3:1 Now the word of the LORD came to Jonah the second time, saying, 2 “Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and preach to it the message that I tell you.” 3 So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, a three-day journey in extent. 3:4 And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!” 5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them. 6 Then word came to the king of Nineveh; and he arose from his throne and laid aside his robe, covered himself with sackcloth and sat in ashes. 7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published throughout Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything; do not let them eat, or drink water. 8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily to God; yes, let every one turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands. 9 Who can tell if God will turn and relent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish? 10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Oh and on a side note . . . I agree with what you are saying here . . .

The passage you have quoted below is speaking about God giving the Nation of Israel the option to repent, not predicting one way or the other what they would do. God is telling them what would happen if they did repent or if they did not repent. And if God can be wrong in a good way can't he be wrong in a bad way?

But that certainly doesn't jive with perfect exhaustive foreknowledge. If God has perfect foreknowledge of what Israel is going to do, how could God give them an option to do otherwise?

Even by your own definition this verse doesn't fit into your theology.

 

[Jeremiah85]

Don't ya get it?

I understand what you are trying to say. The problem is still the concept of God being wrong.

God is simply laying out a principle.

No, God is making a promise to Israel. there is no indication that this is anything more than a specific promise to a specific people. But that is a topic for another thread.

Sorta like . . .
Do this... and I will do that. Do that and I will do this.

Lets see this principle in action....

God told Nineveh (through Jonah) that in 40 days they would be overthrown. Yet Nineveh repented and therefore God relented. Some might say God was wrong, and if a person didn't know the principle laid out in Jeremiah it would appear that God was wrong because He didn't have Nineveh overthrown.

But there is no doubt that God's prediction through Jonah DID NOT come to pass because of the freewill actions of the King and people of Nineveh.

Perhaps it is only from our point of view that God changes. Because God knew that the that the Assyrians would repent if they were threatened with destruction, he sent Jonah to tell them that they woud be destroyed knowing that this would cause them to repent. So, from our point of view God relented, however God did what He intended from the beginning which was to allow them to repent.

 

[Jeremiah85]

I agree with what you are saying here . . .But that certainly doesn't jive with perfect exhaustive foreknowledge. If God has perfect foreknowledge of what Israel is going to do, how could God give them an option to do otherwise?

Even by your own definition this verse doesn't fit into your theology.

How are you defining perfect foreknowledge? Beause I am not understanding how knowledge of how an event will turn out prevents freewill.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

No, God is making a promise to Israel. there is no indication that this is anything more than a specific promise to a specific people. But that is a topic for another thread.

A promise to do what is the question.

God is promising that He will repent/relent if they repent/relent either in a good way or bad way. Again, Jeremiah 18 is a description of God's character by Himself. A promise yes! But a promise that reveals His nature in relation to our freewill.

Perhaps it is only from our point of view that God changes. Because God knew that the that the Assyrians would repent if they were threatened with destruction, he sent Jonah to tell them that they woud be destroyed knowing that this would cause them to repent. So, from our point of view God relented, however God did what He intended from the beginning which was to allow them to repent.

So you are saying that God lied through Jonah?

When God said....
"Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!"

Was He lying?

Was it an idle threat or did He really mean it?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

How are you defining perfect foreknowledge? Beause I am not understanding how knowledge of how an event will turn out prevents freewill.

How else can perfect foreknowldge be defined?

Doesn't the term define itself?

Foreknowledge = knowledge of the future.
Perfect = Precisely accurate, exact.

Therefore....

Perfect foreknowledge means....

Precisely accurate, exact knowledge of the future. If we add exhaustive to the equation....

Precisely accurate, exact knowledge of every future event without exception.

Are you OK with that definition?

 

[godrulz]

:doh:

Just because it is hypothetical does not make it possible.
Answering impossible questions is never easy.

Allow me to use an anology about what I believe: If my Mom were to offer me some corn for dinner I would have the free will to eat it or to refuse it. My mother knows however that under no circumstances will I ever eat corn (mainly because it makes me sick to my stomach) therefore she knows that I will not accept it. God gives us free will, and because God has perfect foreknowledge, he knows with complete accuracy what we will choose.

You are able to eat the corn if you are forced to at gunpoint, or if you crave it and do not care about the consequences. A high probability of a choice is still not a certainty if it is free and there are other possible alternatives. Your analogy is flawed.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Ya know . . . it still blows me away that Robin championed Calvinism and Freak applauded her. LOL :darwinsm:

I am really looking forward to a response from Robin and Freak regarding that most bizarre turn of events on this thread.

 

[godrulz]

And therefore true freewill and perfect exhaustive foreknowledge are mutually exclusive. BOTH cannot be true.

We either have true freewill or God has perfect exhaustive foreknowledge, one or the other both cannot logically be true.

God felt it was a higher good to have genuine love relationships freely chosen (vs robots) than to have exhaustive foreknowledge. The type of creation He chose brought a voluntary 'limitation' on the nature of His knowledge and 'control'. He is still sovereign and omniscient, but not in a distorted classic sense. Our desire is to know His revelation and accurately represent who He is and His ways.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

God felt it was a higher good to have genuine love relationships freely chosen (vs robots) than to have exhaustive foreknowledge. The type of creation He chose brought a voluntary 'limitation' on the nature of His knowledge and 'control'. He is still sovereign and omniscient, but not in a distorted classic sense. Our desire is to know His revelation and accurately represent who He is and His ways.

Excellent! :up:

 

[godrulz]

Personally I think this may be the single most important issue when it comes to how the lost view Christianity.

When I ask the lost if there is anything an omniscient God cannot know, they usually intuitively say 'the future'. I am blown away at their insight when they are not seeing through the filter of a traditional view without being exposed to an alternative view that is less problematic.

 

[godrulz]

I have a question, as I am a little open-minded in this area, Sir Knight.

Can God give real guidance without knowing the future? I'm trying to imagine the spiritual dialogue.

"Lord, what do I do?"

"How would I know? I don't know what's gonna happen either way."

God is all wise and omnicompetent. His perfect knowledge of the past, present, and future possibilities allows Him to give guidance. Not knowing if I will eat steak or pancakes trillions of years before I was born has no bearing on His perfect wisdom.

 

[godrulz]

Part of the issue here is the issue of time, is it not?

If the future exists for God even as the present does, then God is consistently in all places at all times and is not restricted by time. This would mean that time is not a part of God's nature to which God is subject and that God is not a linear entity. Meaning that He is not restricted to the present only and operates outside of our realm. If God is not restricted to the present, our present, then the future is known by God because God indwells the future, as well as the present.
This means that our future choices, as free as they are, are simply known by God. Our ability to choose is not altered or lessened by God existing in the future and knowing what we freely choose. It just means that God can see what we will freely choose, because it is what we have freely chosen.

Simple foreknowledge does not compute. You are also confusing time with space. You use spatial analogies about duration/sequence/succession. Time is not a place one goes to or is in. Time is not even a 'thing'.

 

[godrulz]

So you deny that God can know what choices that we will make?
According to dictionary.com omniscient means: Having total knowledge; knowing everything

God knows with perfect accuracy every decision that will be made. You are stating that man does not have freewill, therefore do you believe that in the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve had no choice but to sin? I believe that God gave them a choice but already knew what the outcome would be.

A secular dictionary is not precise for theological concepts. Just as omnipotence does not mean doing the undoable, so omniscience does not mean knowing the unknowable. It means to know all that is knowable, which precludes exhaustive foreknowledge of future free will contingencies. He correctly knows them as possibilities, not actualities.

 

[Jeremiah85]

A promise to do what is the question.

A promise to whom. Promises that apply to the Hebrews cannot be applyed to gentile nations.

So you are saying that God lied through Jonah?

When God said....
"Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!"

Was He lying?

Was it an idle threat or did He really mean it?

What I am saying is that God was giving the Assyrians the free will to choose between the two options. However, in His Precisely accurate, exact knowledge of every future event without exception he knew what their final choice would be after He sent Jonah to deliver that message. The fact that He knew this has no bearing on their freewill.

What I disagree with is the fact that you are making God into a creature that has to hope that his plans and predictions will come to pass and is disappointed when they do not work out the way that He wanted. If this is the true God of Christianity, then what if His prediction that I will go to Heaven If I accept Christ as my Savior is wrong? A God that can be wrong cannot make absolute promises. A God that can be wrong cannot be trusted with my soul. What if He is wrong about Romans 8:38-39? It seems that I should be much more nervous about my eternal future than I currently am.