Judas was chosen after prayer to be in the inner circle. Jesus did not chose a devil. He chose a disciple. Judas fell away from grace and died as a son of perdition/hell. He refutes your idea that he was never a believer. The other loop hole is to say this was before the resurrection. The reality is that any believer, OT or NT, can become an unbeliever by choice or rebellion. OSAS is a false assurance for those who live like the devil while claiming a previous Christian conversion.
A Peculiar Kind of Gospel
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Judas was chosen after prayer to be in the inner circle. Jesus did not chose a devil. He chose a disciple. Judas fell away from grace and died as a son of perdition/hell. He refutes your idea that he was never a believer. The other loop hole is to say this was before the resurrection. The reality is that any believer, OT or NT, can become an unbeliever by choice or rebellion. OSAS is a false assurance for those who live like the devil while claiming a previous Christian conversion.
No kidding. Who is responsible for faith? Our faith is kept alive by Christ, Anyone who is indwelt with Christ will not leave Him. That is the bottom line. That is the truth. I am not a Calvinist. And I started believing in OSAS before I even heard what Enyart had to say about it. And I am an Open Theist.
It is continued by Christ.
They were never a believer in the first place. And you, yourself, teach trust in our own works. You trust in yourself for your faith, and tell others to do the same. I haven't always believed in OSAS, but I know I was saved before I did. Because once I understood what it actually meant, and saw what scripture actually said, the Holy Spirit revealed to me the truth.
There is no evidence to the contrary.
Actually, Sozo seems to be an Open Theist to me. He believes that God does not have exhaustive foreknowledge of the future.
But, getting back to the point, It is not that you believe wrongly that says you are not saved. It is that you deny it, after being confronted with the scripture, and it is obvious the Holy Spirit has not revealed its truth to you...
The doctrine of perseverance of the saints is not a condition of salvation. But it's true. And when someone is saved, indwelt with the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit leads them into all truth, so those who are saved will be led to the truth of OSAS, when they see what the word says about it.
It's not a condition on which someone's salvation is decided, but those who are saved are saved eternally.
servent101
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How to actually become a Christian seems to be a non interesting topic, but to sit and just talk about it and ignore posts is the means by which the church will stay as it is. - No one ever responds to posts like this
I can only surmise that they hit a little too close to your comfort zone.?
With Christ's Love
Servent101
I can only surmise that they hit a little too close to your comfort zone.?
With Christ's Love
Servent101
Well, you've stepped in it now. God knew Judas' heart. God needed someone to betray Jesus, in order to set about the events of the death of Christ. Judas was who He chose. Christ knew that one of the disciples would betray Him. And at the last supper He flat out told Judas that he was the one who would. Judas was a thief, even after becoming a disciple. And he had remorse, after his betrayal. So Judas was not one who lived a life that was faithful, but in the end he was torn up inside over what he did. Are you really that clueless?
Nice technical loophole. There is a difference between Old and New Covenant. Were OT saints not saved because they were not indwelt by the Spirit? Did they all go to hell because it was pre-resurrection? There have been believers and unbelievers from the time of creation. If Judas was not saved because Jesus was not glorified, then Peter, John, Matthew, Mark, David, Abraham, Moses, etc. were not saved? God has had His people before and after the incarnation. People walked with God through the ages (Enoch, Elijah, etc.). This is the heart of salvation: to know and love God. You emphasize the truth about the life of God to the point that even Moses could not be saved? Relationship is as much an image of salvation as the life of God (Father-Son; bride-bridegroom).
Sozo
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Wow! I owe you an apology.
The reason why you keep preaching a false gospel, is not because you are malicious, but it is honestly because you are stupid.
"And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect."
Righteousness was accounted to all those under the Old Covenant, but the promise of life in Christ Jesus was not available until Christ died, was buried, and rose again. The mystery of the gospel is "Christ in you" It is your only hope of glory. All of the OT saints looked forward to the promise. Salavation is life, and for you to reject this basic fundemental truth, is a clear indicator that you do not have the truth.
The devil did not enter Judas until the end. God knew Judas' heart when He told Jesus to pick him as a trusted member of the inner circle to share His message. God's wisdom would preclude chosing a devil. Does it occur to you that Judas progressively deviated from a good heart to one that betrayed Christ? It does not mean that he was born that way or always that way early in Christ's ministry. Jesus knew Judas would betray him at some point, but not when he first chose him (Jn. 6:70 he was a devil then, but not when he was chosen...v.71 one of the 12 LATER betrayed Him; he was called a disciple originally Lk. 6:13...a common word for salvation in the Gospels and Acts; he was also called an apostle! Devils are not apostles). A careful examination of the chronology will support Judas being a believer who became the classic apostate (though this contradicts your views).
As an Open Theist, you should know that Judas did not have to fulfill the betrayer role. He was not predestined from eternity past to betray Christ. The Lord's mission would still be fulfilled with or without Judas Iscariot. See Greg Boyd's thoughts on why Judas is not an example of predestination or exhaustive foreknowledge.
I Tim. 1:19 "...shipwrecked their faith..."
I Tim. 5:15 "Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan".
I Tim. 6:9,10,21 "...wandered from the faith..."
II Peter 2:20-22 "...knowing our Lord Jesus Christ and are again (subsequent to conversion) entangled in it and overcome (vs OSAS), they are WORSE off at the end than they were at the beginning...would have been better to not have known way of righteousness than to have KNOWN it and THEN to TURN THEIR backs ....cf. dog returning to vomit or pig to mud= apostasy..."
II Tim. 4:10 Demas; 2:16-18 Hymenaeus and Philetus wandered from the truth (meaning they once were in the truth or it is a pointless warning of the danger of apostasy).
King Saul
Charles Tempelton
There is nothing explicit in these verses to support your assumption that they were never believers. Apostasy is a falling from truth, not a remaining in one version of lostness in exchange for another variety of lostness. There is also nothing explicit that supports your assumption that ALL of these wanderers would eventually come back. In history, some people were believers, others were not. Some returned, others did not.
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God chose Judas because He knew that Judas would betray Jesus! And Judas stole from the treasury, before the end!
Does it occur to you that he had remorse in the end? You are the one who is certain Judas went to hell.
I never said he was born that way.:doh: But you do know that Judas stole from the treasury, don't you?
What a moron!:doh:
1] The verses in John say nothing about when Jesus first knew that Judas would betray Him!
2] The fact that Judas was called a disciple means nothing! John the Baptist had disciples. Judas was a disciple of Jesus. So? That does not mean he was "saved!"
3] When was Judas called an apostle?
4] Judas was never an actual devil!
No, it won't. You tool. Upon close enough examination it would appear that Judas, having remorse, repented.
Even with the foreknowledge of what Judas would do, that does not mean God has exhaustive foreknowledge. God knew that Christ was going to die. Why? Because He was going to bring it about! The same goes for Judas' betrayal! God ordained it, in order for the death of Christ to come about! Judas did have to, because God made him! Are you really that stupid?!:doh:
See edited post above.
God did not make Judas betray Jesus anymore than He made specific Roman soldiers kill Jesus. This would negate free will and make God unjust in condemning their actions (problem with Calvinistic version that you adopted). Judas or soldier x did not have to be the individual's to bring about God's plan. He could have used Joe Blow or soldier y if Judas and soldier x had a change of heart.
Remorse is regret. It is not the same as genuine repentance. The Bible calls Judas a son of perdition/hell. Why are you trying to hold out the possibility he was saved? Acts is clear that he was not in the end.
Judas did not rob from the treasury in day 1 of his mission with Christ, did he? This came later, if I recall.
Lk. 6:13 The 12 included Judas. They were 'designated apostles'.
You are making rookie mistakes. Check my references before you call me moron.
God did not make Judas betray Jesus anymore than He made specific Roman soldiers kill Jesus. This would negate free will and make God unjust in condemning their actions (problem with Calvinistic version that you adopted). Judas or soldier x did not have to be the individual's to bring about God's plan. He could have used Joe Blow or soldier y if Judas and soldier x had a change of heart.
Remorse is regret. It is not the same as genuine repentance. The Bible calls Judas a son of perdition/hell. Why are you trying to hold out the possibility he was saved? Acts is clear that he was not in the end.
Judas did not rob from the treasury in day 1 of his mission with Christ, did he? This came later, if I recall.
Lk. 6:13 The 12 included Judas. They were 'designated apostles'.
You are making rookie mistakes. Check my references before you call me moron.
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I did miss this post. Thx for pointing it out. I have always maintained that OT saints were in the covenant because they looked ahead to the sacrifice that would take away the sins of the world. Animal sacrifices were not efficacious, but they demonstrated faith in the coming Lamb of God. OT and NT believers were saved by faith (see Paul in Romans). They looked ahead to the Messiah by faith; we now look back to the Messiah and His finished work by faith.
At least I am making progress. I am not so much a Christ-hater as I am thick and slow/stupid. Given my academic background, what hope is there for the unsophisticated people with no biblical background? They will never be able to understand your ideas and explanations of what the Gospel really is.:down:
What version is that from?
This does not contradict what I have said.
What version? Where does it say that they were ever in the faith? It merely says they wandered from it. Actually, in my Bible it says "erred," instead of "wandered."
Knowledge of the truth is not the same as knowing Christ, personally. Also, these verses does not say that they are no longer under grace.
"How could we ever return, that which we never could earn?"
-Newsboys
Going Public
4:10 says nothing of Demas being in the truth. And 2:16-8 never says that the other two were in the truth. It says they erred, concerning the truth.
How so?
You do not know his heart. You never did.
There is nothing in those verses to support your assumption that they were once believers [had faith in Christ]. You are assuming that Christ will tell no one that He doesn't know them.
How can we lose that which we did not gain? Who, in their right mind, would accept God's grace at one point, then, at a later time, turn around and tell Him they didn't want it anymore?
How far do you think God's grace goes? How far do you think Christ's blood reaches?
Have you ever tried to be still and know that He is Holy, that He is God?
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1] God knew Judas' heart. And God allowed Satan to tempt Judas, knowing what Judas would do. And Judas did have a change of heart. Why do you think he returned the thirty pieces of silver and hung himself?
2] The soldier was doing His job.
Where does Acts mention that Judas was not saved? And how does remorse not lead to repentance? What do you think repentance is?
So? That fact that he did at all shows that you are wrong in assuming that he didn't go bad until the night of the Last Supper.
Okay. But how does this work with your point? What do you think apostle means?
Your references are as full of crap as you are.
God's grace, love, and blood are unfathomable. God will not be mocked. Why would anyone reject Him? I agree it is tantamount to suicide and the epitomy of stupidity. I am merely suggesting that it is possible and reveals the depravity of man's heart despite the love of God (God's heart has been broken by believers and unbelievers).
I did not say Judas went bad on the night of the last supper. I said he was possessed by Satan late in the game. He was going bad previous to that, but not when he was called at the beginning of their ministry.
Disciple=apostle= believer....take the word at face value. Jesus did not choose a crook. Judas became one later.
I did not say Judas went bad on the night of the last supper. I said he was possessed by Satan late in the game. He was going bad previous to that, but not when he was called at the beginning of their ministry.
Disciple=apostle= believer....take the word at face value. Jesus did not choose a crook. Judas became one later.
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Choose. Not chose. Tense, dude. How do the words disciple and apostle translate into believer? And when you say believer, do you mean one who has faith in Christ?
I get confused on choose/chose...is chose past tense? choose present tense? Thx. I edited the post. I am not perfect?! arrgggg....waaaaa.
Trace the use of these words throughout the NT. We are talking about faith in Christ, being a disciple of Jesus (not of Buddha), an apostle of Christ (not of Saddam Hussein). These terms were interchangeable and applied to true followers of Jesus.
They can also be used in our modern context of those who follow false religions and teachers.
You are correct to observe that not everyone who 'believes' in Christ is saved. The devil 'believes' and he trembles (James). Context will determine if they are true believers. The word faith/belief/trust implies are surrender, not just mental assent.
Judas was listed with the 12 as an apostle and disciple. It was only later that he fell from his standing. He was not singled out as the black sheep at the time of Jesus' wise and prayerful selection of His trusted inner circle responsible to preach His message. You do not pick an ungodly, demonized person to do this. Judas became the traitor. He was not the traitor at his selection. God may have known Judas was a risk or had a tendency to greed, but Matthew, Peter, etc. also had character flaws. This is the point of Teacher-disciple. He takes us from where we are at apart from Him and transforms us into a Christ-like servant. Just as Israel wandered from God despite His perfect 'parenting', so Jesus also had 'disciples' who fell away. If they would have continued following Him, there destiny would be different. As the trials increased, mulitudes fell away. Many had wrong motives and were never truly followers. Others started the race good, but were sifted by Satan and there flesh. It did not have to be this way if they would have continued to fix their eyes on Jesus. His grace, love, and power were sufficient, but God still honors free moral agency.
The whole Calvinistic idea of elect/non-elect is specious. You do not agree with TULIP on these terms, yet your views share a common foundation and assumption. In essence, once someone is elect (whether through arbitrary Calvinistic predestination or through repentant faith), you feel they are set for life. Jesus warned that even the elect could be deceived. I would suspect that some believers will be sifted in the Great Tribulation in the days of the Antichrist.
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You misunderstood my statement. Sozo seemed to imply that you have to believe OSAS or you really do not understand the Gospel and are thus not saved. I pointed out that hundreds of millions of non-Calvinistic evangelicals deny OSAS and are in fact true followers of Christ.
So, many believers hold to OSAS and many believers reject OSAS. Typically, the Reformed-Calvinistic/Baptist part of the Body of Christ believes OSAS (TULIP). The Arminian part of the Body (Wesleyan, Pentecostal, etc.) does not teach OSAS, though we believe we are secure in Christ, if we remain in Christ. It is simply not a salvation doctrine. Salvation is based on faith in Christ and His finished work, not whether we agree with Calvin's interpretation of the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints.
Open Theism is generally a sub-type of Arminianism. Classic Open Theists reject OSAS, because the future is open, man has free will, and our destinies are not predestined and fixed by God before birth. Enyart is not a classic open theist, but has adopted some of its ideas (open future). He denies spiritual gifts for today, water baptism for the church; he affirms OSAS. So, his views contain anomalies from normative open theism.
There are Baptists who are Open Theists. They retain there OSAS ideas. I am a Pentecostal Open Theist. I retain my belief in speaking in tongues. My denomination would consider Open Theism heretical, as do most denominations. We do not believe OSAS. Other believers believe OSAS. Many people are confused on what they believe on the topic and could not give a good defense for either position (further proof that it is not a salvific issue).
I object to being told I am outside of Christ because I do not believe OSAS. You do not have to be Calvinistic to believe the doctrine. You do not have to be Calvinistic to be saved. Calvinists and Arminians and Open Theists can all be potentially saved if they implicitly trust Christ for salvation. In each camp, they may or may not believe OSAS. To imply that a rejection of OSAS proves that one is not saved, goes beyond the Bible and is a good starting point to form a narrow minded cult.
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