ECT Faith + Obedience = Salvation?

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Danoh

New member
Cross Reference said:
"Forgive us this day our trespasses as we forgive others who tresspass against us". That is part of the Lords prayer Jesus recited to His Disciples you say you don't pray. How come you don't believe it applies to you?
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That entire prayer was...

1- basically a model of various aspects within God's Prophesied aspect of His Will;

2- having to do with how they were to pray to the Father;

3- during Israel's hour of temptation;

4 - He was to have brought unto this world back then, prior to His Son's return;

5- but did not, because He had planned on interrupting that hour of His Wrath that Israel was then headed for;

6 - prior to His equally Prophesied, Promised delivery of them per His Covenant unto them.

7- which the Father had planned on temporarily interrupting; for a time.

Romans 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

In essence, the accusation of Israel in Unbelief - "well, what is He waiting for now; He has proven He alone is sovereign; and that we are supposedly no better than the Gentiles- what else is left; what's He waiting for now?

Spoiler

At which point, Paul reminds Israel of another time in their long history of disobedience wherein God had reminded them that He works His power (His will) in His own times and seasons...

And how that: just as at other times within Unbelieving Israel's long, rebellious history, He had set apart those who Believed from those who had refused to - thus, His temporary delay of His outpouring of His wrath prior to His blessing Israel; so too now...

9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Paul then brings up more examples of times from within Unbelieving Israel's past wherein God had not only separated out Unbelieving from Believing Israel, but delayed pouring out His wrath prior to delivering them, but did something else, in the meantime.

All as a proof that He will pour out His wrarth at some point.

And that He will deliver Israel after that.

Romans 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

What has happened until then?

Why?

9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Paul will then expand upon that further, in Romans 10 and 11.

THAT is where much of what is instructed on in Matthew thru John is to be viewed from.

Matthew 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Which was temporarily...interrupted.

Thus, Romans 11 ends on the very theme that Romans 9 began...

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
 
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Jerry Shugart said:
Let us look at what Paul says about David:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:4-8).​

Are you not aware that believers receive the imputed righteousness of God and will not be judged according to their own righteousness? If we are all judged according to our own righteousness then we are all doomed:

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away" (Isa.46:6).​
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Their righteous acts were as filthy rags BECAUSE their hearts were not right.
They did a righteous act because they had to, but they did not mean it.
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
Cross Reference said:
"Forgive us this day our trespasses as we forgive others who tresspass against us". That is part of the Lords prayer Jesus recited to His Disciples you say you don't pray. How come you don't believe it applies to you?
Click to expand...

Because I don't doubt or question anything about the operation of God, and that includes His having forgiven all my trespasses.

Colossians 2:12-14KJV
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;​
 
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Danoh

New member
Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

Until seventy times seven - until that time Prophesied by Daniel is up.

At which point, this in bold...begins...

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Spoiler

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

When all that is over, then what?

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Thing is, that all begins on a negative...

Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

You see that - it begins on a negative...

On a war in heaven in which the Angel Michael and his Angels kicks that fallen angel Lucifer and his dark princes out of heaven; they fall down to the Earth and make war with the world, but especially against the Believing remnant of Israel: thus their need to focus on all that that prayer is meant to focus them on.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
 
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glorydaz said:
Because I don't doubt or question anything about the operation of God, and that includes His having forgiven all my trespasses.

Colossians 2:12-14KJV
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;​
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That is past trespasses. If you sin while you are saved then you have to repent of those sins.
 
D

Danoh

New member
glorydaz said:
Because I don't doubt or question anything about the operation of God, and that includes His having forgiven all my trespasses.

Colossians 2:12-14KJV
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;​
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Yep - through the faith of the operation of God.

In other words, through what His simply speaking forth His Will through His Word, is alone able to bring about simply because His Word is faithful - is able to accomplish what He speaks forth.

As in, And God said Let there be light...and there was.

The faith of the operation of God.

His very Words; His very Will.

And God the Son has said "It is FINISHED" - and it IS - Believe!
 
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glorydaz said:
Bzzzzzzzz....wrong again. :down:
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What is Paul telling these church members to do?

2 Corinthians 12:21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.
 
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Danoh

New member
God's Truth said:
That is past trespasses. If you sin while you are saved then you have to repent of those sins.
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No.

Though we should attempt to avoid sin; it is because sin is unbecoming of a son of God, Romans 6.

Fact is, our every fall actually adounds to the glory of the Son on that Cross.

Actually shows why His FINISHED work ALONE has to be the issue.

Your unawareness of this is what has you adding your endless treadmill to that.

This side of the Mystery revealed to and through the Apostle Paul; the issue is turning from sin - not FOR forgiveness- BUT because it is what Christ died to fully pay for, and fully paid for He DID, or He would not have risen from the dead.

What you are erroneously doing, is Crucifiying Him, over and over, unaware that is what you are doing.

You, of course, will now take this...as an insult.

Do you respond to that from the opportunity it could be - if you had the Cross right?

No.

Do you think "ouch; that stung - but Christ died for my sins; I'll glory in Him in this moment" (the very point of Romans 5).

No. You do not.

Instead, you: as with many on here; take it personally, believe your flesh in that moment; and lash out in kind.

In this aspect, you are not alone on here: in your ignorance of the sufficiency of the FINISHED work of the Cross beyond salvation.

But ignorant of said FINISHED work you also remain...in your own way.

The solution for one and all as to slights - perceived or real?

Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Only that outlook begins to allow further understanding.

That you love the Lord, I have no doubt.

The problem is not that.

The problem is this crucifying of Him over and over of yours that you insist on persisting in; in your continued obliviousness to the obvious.

To the truth that...

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

The best toward you as to those two issues, GT.

Rom. 5:8.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
God's Truth said:
Their righteous acts were as filthy rags BECAUSE their hearts were not right.
They did a righteous act because they had to, but they did not mean it.
Click to expand...

Not just some of them but instead ALL of them had righteousness which is described as being filthy rags. It is a grave error for anyone to try to establish their own righteousness and in the following verse he speaks of those who were attempting to do that very thing:

"For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God" (Ro.10:2-3).​

By all means try to establish your own righteousness but I will tell you right now that when you stand before the LORD your own righteousness will be nothing more than filthy rags!
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
God's Truth said:
What is Paul telling these church members to do?

2 Corinthians 12:21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.
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He's telling the false brethren to get saved. They are in the assembly and still do not regret their debauchery.

1 Thessalonians 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;​
 
God's Truth

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glorydaz said:
He's telling the false brethren to get saved. They are in the assembly and still do not regret their debauchery.

1 Thessalonians 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;​
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So they have to obey to be saved?
lol
 
God's Truth

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Jerry Shugart said:
Not just some of them but instead ALL of them had righteousness which is described as being filthy rags.
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There are righteous people, the Bible says so.

Jerry Shugart said:
It is a grave error for anyone to try to establish their own righteousness and in the following verse he speaks of those who were attempting to do that very thing:
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You were taught to misunderstand the filthy rag scripture.

How do you EVER get that obeying God is as a filthy rag?!

The Jews who had to do a righteous act of giving a sin offering, which included offering BLOOD, God did not like it that they would sin then give a sin offering and not really be sorry for their sins; that made the blood offering as a menstrual bloody rag offering. Not being truly sorry for the sin is what made the righteous act of sacrificing animals for their blood as a filthy rag.

Jerry Shugart said:

"For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God" (Ro.10:2-3).​
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That scripture is Paul explaining that the Jews didn't want to stop sacrificing animals, they did not accept the fact that Jesus is the Sacrificial Lamb of God once and for all.

Jerry Shugart said:
By all means try to establish your own righteousness but I will tell you right now that when you stand before the LORD your own righteousness will be nothing more than filthy rags!
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Jesus' blood washed me clean of the sins I repented of doing. How do you get that is wrong?
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
God's Truth said:
They kept sinning and you said they were not saved because they kept sinning.

You are caught in your craftiness.
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Well, I sure won't be caught in yours. :chuckle:


Had they obeyed the Gospel and believed, they would be new creatures....all things would be new.

That you don't know that reveals more than you might imagine.
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

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glorydaz said:
Well, I sure won't be caught in yours. :chuckle:


Had they obeyed the Gospel and believed, they would be new creatures....all things would be new.

That you don't know that reveals more than you might imagine.
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They were there because they believed.

They sinned and you say that proves they are not saved.
 
D

Danoh

New member
glorydaz said:
Well, I sure won't be caught in yours. :chuckle:


Had they obeyed the Gospel and believed, they would be new creatures....all things would be new.

That you don't know that reveals more than you might imagine.
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Which is when Romans 6-8 and 12-14 are brought in...

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Doesn't mean they were lost - 1st and 2 Corinthians ("reproof) and Galatians ("correction") are both based on the "instruction in righteousness" in Romans that Paul had preached unto both, way before he wrote Romans.

Romans is meant to "perfect" or fully equip the Body member such that said member end up "lacking in nothing" - that is, that said member end up "throughly furnished unto all good works" 2 Tim. 3:16-17.
 
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