Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

JudgeRightly

JudgeRightly

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Arthur Brain said:
It isn't necessarily a "place" at all.
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Of course the Lake of Fire is a place. People are thrown into it who are not written in the Book of Life.

God is described as an all consuming fire in the bible, right? That's obviously not literal.
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Are you suggesting that the entire Bible is all figurative?

Because my position, just to clarify, is that there are some things in the Bible that are figurative, some things that are literal, and some things that are literal but described using figurative language, and even some things that are literal that are described using other literal things.

Who's "we" exactly? And what do you "know" my position to be?

A Calvinist would say the exact same thing. People and doctrines huh?

Pretty much anything would be a better alternative than a God as cruel as that but a God who restores all would be a pretty good place to start.
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See my previous comment in response to FL on "2nd and 3rd chances."

Could you perhaps give just a rough outline of how God could bring about all to repentance?

I noticed in response to FL you argued a point that everyone bowing and acknowledging God are forced. Praise is something freely given
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I agree, though I'm pretty darn sure I said it wasn't worship/praise.

and if everyone is reconciled to God would that be a problem for you?
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Everyone is already reconciled to God. God did that by sending His Son to die on the Cross.

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1:10-13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John1:10-13&version=NKJV

He wants people to repent from their ways and turn to Him.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. - 1 Timothy 2:3-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Timothy2:3-4&version=NKJV
 
JudgeRightly

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MennoSota said:
Your abusive use of 2 Peter 3 has been noted and corrected in the past. You persist in a poor interpretation, which provides poor perspective on the rest of scripture as it pertains to God's Sovereign choice. There is no help I can offer you when you reject the passage for a twisted interpretation.
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Then if it's truth, it's worth stating again.

Show me again how I'm wrong.
 
Arthur Brain

Arthur Brain

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JudgeRightly said:
Of course the Lake of Fire is a place. People are thrown into it who are not written in the Book of Life.
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How's death "thrown" exactly?

:plain:

Are you suggesting that the entire Bible is all figurative?

Because my position, just to clarify, is that there are some things in the Bible that are figurative, some things that are literal, and some things that are literal but described using figurative language, and even some things that are literal that are described using other literal things.
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Not at all.

See my previous comment in response to FL on "2nd and 3rd chances."

Could you perhaps give just a rough outline of how God could bring about all to repentance?
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I saw it and frankly, it was just your opinion. I think when people are faced with something they can no longer deny or be unsure about they'd be likely to accept it, especially when done out of love and for their benefit. Makes more sense than people "choosing" an alternative of suffering.

Oh, and you didn't answer as to how you "know what my position to be" is. I'd appreciate it if you clarified just what you think you "know" exactly. Thanks.

I agree, though I'm pretty darn sure I said it wasn't worship/praise.
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On the other hand, the passage does:

'As surely as I live,' says the LORD, every knee will bend to me, and every tongue will confess and give praise to God".

So it's not forced.



Everyone is already reconciled to God. God did that by sending His Son to die on the Cross.

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1:10-13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John1:10-13&version=NKJV

He wants people to repent from their ways and turn to Him.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. - 1 Timothy 2:3-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Timothy2:3-4&version=NKJV
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If everyone is reconciled to God then there's no eternity of separation and suffering else you've got a very strange idea of what being reconciled actually means.
 
Right Divider

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Arthur Brain said:
If everyone is reconciled to God then there's no eternity of separation and suffering else you've got a very strange idea of what being reconciled actually means.
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Reconciliation is a TWO-WAY operation. God has done His part.

2 Corinthians 5:19-21 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)​
19 to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.​

Paul begs people to do their part in the reconciliation.
 
Clete

Clete

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JudgeRightly said:
It would be easier on both of us if you just quote my post and respond with one complete post, instead of not using the QUOTE function at all.



2 Peter 3:9:

ου βραδυνει κυριος της επαγγελιας ως τινες βραδυτητα ηγουνται αλλα μακροθυμει εις υμας μη βουλομενος τινας απολεσθαι αλλα παντας εις μετανοιαν χωρησαι

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.


Strong's g1014

- Lexical: βούλομαι
- Transliteration: boulomai
- Part of Speech: Verb
- Phonetic Spelling: boo'-lom-ahee
- Definition: to will, intend, desire, wish.
- Origin: Middle voice of a primary verb; to "will," i.e. (reflexively) be willing.
- Usage: be disposed, minded, intend, list, (be, of own) will (-ing). Compare ethelo.
- Translated as (count): desiring (5), I want (4), I purposed (2), intending (2), purposed (2), purposing (2), resolving (2), wished (2), desired (1), has chosen (1), Having willed (1), he was willing (1), he wills (1), I desire (1), I have been desiring (1), might choose (1), might resolve (1), resolve (1), resolves (1), We resolve (1), willing (1), wish you (1), You are willing (1), you intend (1).



The Koine word doesn't make the distinction you make. And in addition to that, the verse states the exact opposite of what you're claiming.

"NOT WILLING that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

God doesn't will that any should perish. Yet most will, as stated in scripture:

“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. - Matthew 7:13-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew7:13-14&version=NKJV

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:11-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation20:11-15&version=NKJV



Why would I worry if I know it will happen?



Forcing those who reject God to acknowledge Him as God is a good thing to do, even if they don't want to.



Again, forcing those to acknowledge God as God is a good thing to do. They aren't worshipping.

Those who love God worship Him willingly.



You can't get around what Revelation 20:11-15 says.

It says that anyone not found in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire. That means those who reject God.



Certain things will happen, and God will prevail in the end, But that doesn't mean that everything is settled, predetermined. You can choose to respond to my posts, or you could choose to completely ignore everything I write. God did not predestine you to do either, but gave you the ability to do either. God is capable of working around those who reject Him.



Again, God wants all to come to repentance, but clearly not all will, as Scripture says "anyone not found in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire."



Ok, and?



Several times in scripture, men of God interceded on other men's behalf, and God changed his mind about destroying them.

One of the best examples of this is King Hezekiah:

In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, “Thus says the Lord: ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die, and not live.’ ”Then he turned his face toward the wall, and prayed to the Lord, saying,“Remember now, O Lord, I pray, how I have walked before You in truth and with a loyal heart, and have done what was good in Your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly.And it happened, before Isaiah had gone out into the middle court, that the word of the Lord came to him, saying,“Return and tell Hezekiah the leader of My people, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the Lord .And I will add to your days fifteen years. I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for My own sake, and for the sake of My servant David.”’ ” - 2 Kings 20:1-6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Kings20:1-6&version=NKJV

Hezekiah was going to die. It wasn't because He was wicked, or because he did anything wrong. He was a righteous king. God told Him (through Isaiah) that He was going to die. But Hezekiah prayed to God, and asked Him to spare his life, and God heard him, and BECAUSE of Hezekiah's prayer, He healed him.

So, my question is this: Are you calling God a liar for telling Hezekiah that he would heal him and allow him to live for 15 more years, after He said that he was going to die? Or, as per the Open View, did the circumstances change, and God, being capable, changed His mind about Hezekiah dying?



And yet, even though He is the Saviour of the world, people still reject Him. Which brings us back to my answer to your next question in the list.



Agreed. And yet, people still reject Him.



Good answer.

This is exactly why God cannot save everyone who ever lived, is living, or ever will live. Only those who accept Him.





And yet, people still reject Him.



Let me ask you something. If God were to give everyone who ever lived a second chance after they died to come to Him, why would anyone come to Him in this life? My point being, man is inherently wicked, and would rather not humble himself, and allowing him the opportunity to humble himself after he dies? He'll just put it off until after he dies. And even then, man would still reject God, and become bitter against Him, and harden their hearts in rebellion, and at the point that their "second chance" runs out, they would be even more likely to reject God than they were in this life. Which is counterproductive to 2 Peter 3:9, that all should come to repentance.

So why not a third or a fourth chance then? Why not an infinite number of chances? Because it would allow them to put off their repentance for all eternity, and not fear any consequences for their rebellion, emboldening them to rebel even more, which hardens their heart against God.

Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. - Ecclesiastes 8:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes8:11&version=NKJV

Normally, I would use that verse in defence of God's criminal justice system. But it applies (perhaps even more so) to God's demand for eternal justice.

Forcing those who reject God to acknowledge Him AS GOD is a very healthy thing to do for someone who rejects Him, just like it is a healthy thing to do (especially for the criminal) to force a criminal to acknowledge that what he has done is wrong.



See above.



See above.



No idea what you're talking about.



I'm making an analogy.

My point is that God declares the destination for the group called "Those who love Him," and He declares another destination for the group called "Those who hate Him."

Everyone is born into the group of "Those who know Him," but after a certain point, when they reach the age of accountability (which is different for everyone), if they rebel against God, they become part of "Those who hate Him," after which they must humble themselves, and recognize that only God can save them. When they do that, they become "Those who love Him," and are eternally sealed.

Those who die before they rebel against God ("Those who know Him") are a sub-group within "Those who love Him."

Now, as far as I know or am aware, the Bible doesn't talk much about those who die before the age of accountability, so what I'm about to say is most likely conjecture, but founded/based in reason and scripture.

It is my belief (and others') that when those who die before the age of accountability are immediately transported to be with God, and given the opportunity to either accept or reject God. How long they are given, I'm not sure, but I would imagine it's sufficient enough, as God is just.

But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. - Luke 12:48 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke12:48&version=NKJV



And yet, people still reject Him.

Which brings us back to Question 4 and 6.



And yet, people will still reject Him.
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Brilliant post.

I don't see how its on topic but it's not my thread so who cares.

The "No idea what you're talking about." line made me laugh out loud! :chuckle:

My bet is that the response won't be 10% as substantive. This FineLinen guy is new so maybe he'll surprise me.

I'm holding my breath, starting....




NOW!


Clete
 
M

MennoSota

New member
JudgeRightly said:
Then if it's truth, it's worth stating again.

Show me again how I'm wrong.
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I already pointed out the entire context of 2 Peter 3 to you and how it is referring to the coming judgment of God. I pointed out that Peter is writing to the elect. The verse you quote cannot possibly mean that God wills everyone to be saved. If that were the correct interpretation then every human on the planet would indeed be saved. But they are not. The road is narrow and few find it. The elect, however, will all be saved and spared the judgment presented in 2 Peter 3, just as Noah was chosen and spared.
Now, please stop teaching an abominable interpretation from 2 Peter 3.
 
Arthur Brain

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Right Divider said:
Reconciliation is a TWO-WAY operation. God has done His part.

2 Corinthians 5:19-21 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)​
19 to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.​

Paul begs people to do their part in the reconciliation.
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Well if everyone ends up giving praise to God then isn't that a sign of reconciliation?
 
F

FineLinen

Well-known member
"My bet is that the response won't be 10% as substantive. This FineLinnen guys is new so maybe he'll surprise me.

I'm holding my breath, starting....




NOW!


Clete

Surprise!
 
JudgeRightly

JudgeRightly

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Arthur Brain said:
Romans 14:11. Some versions have it as "every tongue will confess to God" and one has "will declare allegiance to God" so it's pretty obvious this isn't being forced.
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I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath. - Isaiah 45:23 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah45:23&version=NKJV

6cf98305d122e9f6209cfc3934870eac.jpg



Strong's h7650

- Lexical: שָׁבַע
- Transliteration: shaba
- Part of Speech: verb
- Phonetic Spelling: shaw-bah'
- Definition: swore.
- Origin: A primitive root; propr. To be complete, but used only as a denominative from sheba'; to seven oneself, i.e. Swear (as if by repeating a declaration seven times).
- Usage: adjure, charge (by an oath, with an oath), feed to the full (by mistake for saba'), take an oath, X straitly, (cause to, make to) swear.
- Translated as (count): swore (18), and swore (17), I swore (15), he swore (13), swear (13), has sworn (10), I have sworn (8), he has sworn (5), had sworn (4), I charge (4), and he swore (3), And took an oath (3), have I sworn (3), have sworn (3), that swear (3), to swear (3), adjure you (2), and swear (2), And they swore (2), he had sworn (2), shall swear (2), swears (2), you swore (2), against me are sworn (1), And adjured (1), and he who swears (1), and I swore (1), And I will make you swear (1), And made me swear (1), and made them swear (1), and shall charge by an oath (1), and shall swear (1), and swearers (1), and swears (1), and sworn (1), and to swear (1), And you shall swear (1), cause to swear (1), charge (1), do he took an oath (1), do make you to swear (1), for I swear (1), for they had sworn him (1), had made him swear (1), he made you swear (1), he who swears (1), I swear (1), made me swear (1), of him who swears (1), one that swears (1), solemnly sworn (1), straightly charged the people with an oath (1), sworn (1), that swears (1), that swore (1), Then shall charge (1), Then swore (1), they swear (1), they swore an oath (1), they who swear (1), to those who have sworn (1), we have sworn (1), we swore (1), when I had fed them to the full (1), will swear (1), with an oath (1), with the oath (1), you did swear (1), you have made us swear (1), you have made us to swear (1), you have sworn (1).



For it is written: “ As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.” - Romans 14:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans14:11&version=NKJV

γεγραπται γαρ ζω εγω λεγει κυριος οτι εμοι καμψει παν γονυ και πασα γλωσσα εξομολογησεται τω θεω
 
ok doser

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Arthur Brain said:
Romans 14:11. Some versions have it as "every tongue will confess to God" and one has "will declare allegiance to God" so it's pretty obvious this isn't being forced.
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point 1. Romans 14 is written to believers

point 2. Romans 14:11 is talking about standing before the judgement throne
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

kjv
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point 3. :shut:
 
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