Bedeviled666: Cricket, cricket.....
The Word "WHOSOEVER" Refutes Calvinism, All Religions
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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Bedeviled666: Cricket, cricket.....
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Whosever believeth means (literally) everyone believing and necessarily excludes those who don't believe. Just like if I said whosever wears red pants it would literally mean everyone wearing red pants and would necessarily mean NOT those wearing pants of some other color. You can't translate that into a universal beyond everyone who meets the criteria listed (believing, in the case of John 3:16). All I'm saying is that Calvinism holds that everyone who believes (literally everyone) will be saved just as the verse says. They don't believe that only some believing will be saved. That "some certain persons" they believe is the entirety of "whosoever believeth". John 3:16 is simply not the verse to counter Calvinist or Reformed theology. That's what's frustrating is that you aren't even properly addressing what you say you are against. By using the English incorrectly, you simply set up a (rather weak) straw man yet say you are overturning Calvinism.
beloved57
Well-known member
All lies !
I disagree. Whosoever cannot be defined to mean any one certain person or group. What it means is all, anyone, everyone. It does not necessarily apply to those that believe. It simply means every person regardless of whether they believe or don't believe. If you assign it to just those that believe the word loses its meaning.
John 3 KJV
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Calvinist/Clavinist version:
16 For God so loved the world of the elect, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever of the world of the elect believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Thus, according to Calvinism, there be some from amongst the world of the elect, that will not believe, or, The LORD God is an idiot, like Calvinists, for even having "whosoever" in the verse, or even having the verse in the bible.
QED.
I know, I know.....You just do not understand Calvinism, my dear, misguided, "un-elect" John W.....
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Calvinist/Clavinist version:
16 For God so loved the world of the elect, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever of the world of the elect believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Thus, according to Calvinism, there be some from amongst the world of the elect, that will not believe, or, The LORD God is an idiot, like Calvinists, for even having "whosoever" in the verse, or even having the verse in the bible.
QED.
I know, I know.....You just do not understand Calvinism, my dear, misguided, "un-elect" John W.....
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Then let's take another biblical example of the same thing - the first instance of the word "whosoever" :
And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
Genesis 4:15
Would you agree that the "whosoever" here means that ONLY those that kill Cain (can he be killed more than once?) will receive vengeance?
He is on record:There are some amongst the elect, who will not believe, not be saved, according to you, and Calvinism.
And my biological brother is an only child.
You can't be this stupid.
beloved57
Well-known member
Dont know what you talking about. However the world in Jn 3:16 is the Elect !
Slower-I know it is quite deep, for you, since you are not one of "the elect:"
For God so loved the world of the elect, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever of the world of the elect believeth in him ]should not perish, but have everlasting life.
that whosoever of the world of the elect believeth =some of the world of the elect will not believe
You can't be this stupid.
He is on record:There are some amongst the elect, who will not believe, not be saved, according to you, and Calvinism=some of the elect will not believe/be saved.
That is the "logic" of Clavinism...
View attachment 25150
Once you assign the word "whosoever" to a person or a group it no longer becomes a "whosoever."
"Whosoever" that kills Cain is no longer a "whosoever" he is a murderer.
beloved57
Well-known member
Yes the world in Jn 3:16 is Gods Elect !
Slower-I know it is quite deep, for you, since you are not one of "the elect:"
For God so loved the world of the elect, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever of the world of the elect believeth in him ]should not perish, but have everlasting life.
that whosoever of the world of the elect believeth =some of the world of the elect will not believe
You can't be this stupid.
He is on record:There are some amongst the elect, who will not believe, not be saved, according to you, and Calvinism=some of the elect will not believe/be saved.
That is the "logic" of Clavinism...
Nice, Lamont.
Dummy. You cannot be this stupid.
It means all nations. The greek word used is kosmos (κ?σμος; it's where we get our word 'cosmos'). Verse 17, as if to point out that the whole world, even though Christ died for them, will not all be saved. ("...that the world through him might be saved.")
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ttruscott
Well-known member
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. is in the context of verse 18: Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
These people stand side by side, those who believe and are not condemned and those who do not believe and are condemned already. Since everyone who has ever believed started as a person who did not believe there are obviously two kinds of NON-BELIEVERS; those non-believers who can believe and be saved from condemnation and those those non-believers who are condemned already because they do not believe.
Therefore whoever believes can only refer to the one group of non-believers who can believe, not to the group of non-believers who are condemned already.
These people stand side by side, those who believe and are not condemned and those who do not believe and are condemned already. Since everyone who has ever believed started as a person who did not believe there are obviously two kinds of NON-BELIEVERS; those non-believers who can believe and be saved from condemnation and those those non-believers who are condemned already because they do not believe.
Therefore whoever believes can only refer to the one group of non-believers who can believe, not to the group of non-believers who are condemned already.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
By that reasoning, then, John 3:16 says everyone has eternal life - which is plain universalism.
The gift of life was offered to everyone, but not everyone will accept it.
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HOGWASH!
"Whosoever" simply means all, anyone, everyone.
Jesus said, "Whosoever, all, anyone, everyone, that believes in him should not perish" John 3:16.
This does not mean everyone. It means those that believe in Jesus.
Once they believe in Jesus they no longer become whosoever's. They become believers.
There are only two kinds of people on the earth. Those that believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ and those that do not believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Those that are condemned already are those who heard the Gospel and rejected it. No one is born condemned. All have an opportunity to hear and believe the Gospel and be saved.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
You just got done telling me that, in fact, "whosoever" does mean everyone. That if you try to limit it to anything less than "everyone" it isn't "whosoever" any longer. What you just wrote contradicts that directly. Either "whosoever believeth" means everyone (because, according to your previous posts, you can't limit "whosoever") or "whosoever believeth" means ONLY those that believe. Those are the only two options.