ARCHIVE: The Apostle Pauls affirms that a Christian can sin.

godrulz · Jan 11, 2007

Lighthouse said:
Are you in the flesh, or the Spirit?

In the Spirit. We are to walk in the Spirit, not the flesh (Paul). We are to walk in the light as He is in the light (John). Being in the Spirit does not preclude one from ONE fleshly thought, act, or motive. The Corinthian saints are evidence of this (cf. Eph. and Col. and Phil. exhortations also...and James' unruly tongue teaching).

There is a continuum. We are either believers or unbelievers, saints or sinners, but any given thought, act, or motive can be vice or virtue without making us godless unbelievers for one wrong thought.

Lighthouse · Jan 11, 2007

Is everyone afraid to answer my question?

Lighthouse · Jan 11, 2007

godrulz said:
In the Spirit. We are to walk in the Spirit, not the flesh (Paul). We are to walk in the light as He is in the light (John). Being in the Spirit does not preclude one from ONE fleshly thought, act, or motive. The Corinthian saints are evidence of this (cf. Eph. and Col. and Phil. exhortations also...and James' unruly tongue teaching).

There is a continuum. We are either believers or unbelievers, saints or sinners, but any given thought, act, or motive can be vice or virtue without making us godless unbelievers for one wrong thought.

Okay. If you are in the Spirit, and not in the flesh, that means your identity is in the Spirit, and not in the flesh, correct? Your identity is in Christ? Whether your flesh sins or not [it does] does not matter. It is whether your spirit sins, which it cannot if it is in Christ. So, though you sin in the flesh, you are not in the flesh, as a believer in Christ. Are you? So, do you [who you are in Christ] sin?

Clete · Jan 11, 2007

godrulz said:
I agree with you. I was giving further evidence that there is an initial setting apart as holy and an ongoing work of the Spirit to conform us more and more to the image of Christ (fruit of the Spirit). Any one post may apply to any previous posts or themes, not just the one right before it (I also got an ambulance call and cut the post off before I could further develop it).

I realized an hour or so after I posted my response that you may have been trying to agree with me. My apologies for jumping to the wrong conclusion.

godrulz · Jan 11, 2007

Lighthouse said:
Okay. If you are in the Spirit, and not in the flesh, that means your identity is in the Spirit, and not in the flesh, correct? Your identity is in Christ? Whether your flesh sins or not [it does] does not matter. It is whether your spirit sins, which it cannot if it is in Christ. So, though you sin in the flesh, you are not in the flesh, as a believer in Christ. Are you? So, do you [who you are in Christ] sin?

Your wrong assumptions lead to wrong conclusions (begging the question/circular reasoning...I just posted an alternate understanding of flesh vs spirit/will, intellect, emotions somewhere in response to your post...see it).

godrulz · Jan 11, 2007

Clete said:
I realized an hour or so after I posted my response that you may have been trying to agree with me. My apologies for jumping to the wrong conclusion.

I appreciate your gesture. I am trying to teach my kids that it takes a big man to ask forgiveness and to forgive (not that one needs to 'forgive' a misunderstanding).

I see your view clearly and agree with it. I cannot uncritically accept sozo, LH, or e4e's views as they state them.

Clete · Jan 11, 2007

elected4ever said:
There is nothing eleetist about what i am saying and you know it.. The only thing that I can possibly conclude is that you are in the flesh because you insist on remaining in your sin. I just keep telling you that it doesn't have to be that way.

I am saying the exact same thing that Paul was saying. In fact all I've ever done is simply quote the plain text and took it to mean what it plainly says.

The only real difference between what you say and what I say is that I don't instantly conclude that someone isn't saved because they use the exact same vernacular as the apostle Paul as well as the whole rest of the world. You think you've gotten a handle on some vital point of doctrine and can't wait to lord it over someone who refuses to communicate it in the same way that you do. That's prideful and you know it. You couldn't care less if anyone ever understands the point of the teaching, which is clearly not that we do not commit acts of evil but rather that such acts are not imputed to us as sin, but are instead interested in being confusing because it makes you feel superior to those poor idiots who just don't get it the way you do. You make me sick. You take one of the most important and beautiful doctrines in the entire Bible and use it for an opportunity to make yourself seem to be more than you are. It's pathetic and sinful whether you acknowledge it as such or whether it will be imputed to you as such or not.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Nathon Detroit · Jan 11, 2007

Clete said:
I am saying the exact same thing that Paul was saying. In fact all I've ever done is simply quote the plain text and took it to mean what it plainly says.

The only real difference between what you say and what I say is that I don't instantly conclude that someone isn't saved because they use the exact same vernacular as the apostle Paul as well as the whole rest of the world. You think you've gotten a handle on some vital point of doctrine and can't wait to lord it over someone who refuses to communicate it in the same way that you do. That's prideful and you know it. You couldn't care less if anyone ever understands the point of the teaching, which is clearly not that we do not commit acts of evil but rather that such acts are not imputed to us as sin, but are instead interested in being confusing because it makes you feel superior to those poor idiots who just don't get it the way you do. You make me sick. You take one of the most important and beautiful doctrines in the entire Bible and use it for an opportunity to make yourself seem to be more than you are. It's pathetic and sinful whether you acknowledge it as such or whether it will be imputed to you as such or not.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete, I think your post is spot-on and I really couldn't say it better myself.

"You think you've gotten a handle on some vital point of doctrine and can't wait to lord it over someone who refuses to communicate it in the same way that you do."

BINGO!

Nathon Detroit · Jan 11, 2007

Lighthouse said:
Is everyone afraid to answer my question?

I think your question has been answered about 18 times (at least).

I am in the Spirit. But I am a human being. My name is Knight (well not really

) and this person named Knight is still dealing with the flesh. Sometimes I do fleshy things (the Bible call these things sin - Sozo calls them "misbehaving", e4e call them "stupid acts").

Therefore, while I am identified with Christ I still sin because of the flesh. Thankfully that sin has already been covered (Rom 4:7-8).

Your argument flies in the face of: the Bible, common sense, common vernacular, communication, the definition of sin and probably a few other things.

Poly · Jan 11, 2007

Knight said:
I think your question has been answered about 18 times (at least).

I am in the Spirit. But I am a human being. My name is Knight (well not really ) and this person named Knight is still dealing with the flesh. Sometimes I do fleshy things (the Bible call these things sin - Sozo calls them "misbehaving", e4e call them "stupid acts).

Therefore, while I am identified with Christ I still sin because of the flesh. Thankfully that sin has already been covered (Rom 4:7-8).

You know I think I'm going to use these exact words if I ever want to do a lesson on this topic for a group of 1st graders. This is a great way to explain this so that children will understand it.

Thanks! :up:

elected4ever · Jan 11, 2007

Poly said:
You know I think I'm going to use these exact words if I ever want to do a lesson on this topic for a group of 1st graders. This is a great way to explain this so that children will understand it.

Thanks! :up:

Don't because they are inaccurate.

godrulz · Jan 11, 2007

Out of curiosity, are the non-Knight people familiar with Watchman Nee's teaching on spirit vs flesh?

Poly · Jan 11, 2007

elected4ever said:
Don't because they are inaccurate.

Well, since Paul supports it and there's been nothing provided in this thread as biblical support for an opposing view, I have no doubt I'm safe.

godrulz · Jan 11, 2007

Poly. Who is your avatar picture?

Sozo · Jan 11, 2007

Okay, Knight, Clete, and Poly... Let's at least set one thing to rest, so that we can put aside some of the confusion.

The issue here between what Lighthouse, e4e, and myself are saying comes down to a question of how the term "sin" is used. You define it as all behavior that is contrary to God's will, while we define it as the behavior of the flesh that A Christian no longer is identified with.

Yes or no?

However, let's at least agree that the way that the term is being used by godrulz, and Benjamin is completely unrelated in any way to the way our discussion is going. They believe that your behavior (whatever you want to call it) effects your relationship with God, and that is something that the three of you reject entirely.

Is that correct?

Nathon Detroit · Jan 11, 2007

Sozo said:
Okay, Knight, Clete, and Poly... Let's at least set one thing to rest, so that we can put aside some of the confusion.

The issue here between what Lighthouse, e4e, and myself are saying comes down to a question of how the term "sin" is used. You define it as all behavior that is contrary to God's will, while we define it as the behavior of the flesh that A Christian no longer is identified with.

Yes or no?

Yes and No. The word sin has a wide range of acceptable usages.

However, let's at least agree that the way that the term is being used by godrulz, and Benjamin is completely unrelated in any way to the way our discussion is going. They believe that your behavior (whatever you want to call it) effects your relationship with God, and that is something that the three of you reject entirely.

Is that correct?

Well... I DO NOT believe our behavior can cause us to lose our salvation but clearly our behavior can adversely effect our relationship with God. God grieves when we sin/misbehave/do "stupid acts".

The more we love God the better our relationship is with Him. The less we love and focus on God the weaker our relationship is with Him.

Sozo · Jan 11, 2007

Knight said:
Yes and No. The word sin has a wide range of acceptable usages.

Well... I DO NOT believe our behavior can cause us to lose our salvation but clearly our behavior can adversely effect our relationship with God. God grieves when we sin/misbehave/do "stupid acts".

The more we love God the better our relationship is with Him. The less we love and focus on God the weaker our relationship is with Him.

Thank you for your honesty.

We have two different gospels. I fully reject yours in every way.

I do not have the same Jesus as you.

At least things have been brought out into the open, and there is no more room for speculation.

Nathon Detroit · Jan 11, 2007

Sozo said:
Thank you for your honesty.

We have two different gospels. I fully reject yours in every way.

I do not have the same Jesus as you.

At least things have been brought out into the open, and there is no more room for speculation.

And in what book can we read about your "jesus"? :think:

Nathon Detroit · Jan 11, 2007

Sozo.... are you saying you CANNOT grieve the Holy Spirit?

That's the only possible thing you could disagree with in my last post as far as I can tell.

Sozo · Jan 11, 2007

Knight said:
And in what book can we read about your "jesus"? :think:

Typically, I use the NASB, but the King James, or Young's Literal Translation are just fine.

ARCHIVE: The Apostle Pauls affirms that a Christian can sin.

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