Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

way 2 go

way 2 go

Well-known member
Timotheos said:
That's interesting, because Jesus Christ said in Luke 13:3 that those who refuse to repent will perish. So tell me again what you believe the fate is of those who refuse to repent. Will they perish as Jesus said, or will they go to hell to experience eternal conscious torment?
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later in the chapter Jesus mentions ECT
In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth

Luk 13:27 But he will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!'
Luk 13:28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out.


As for me, I agree with Jesus Christ.
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:nono: you do not agree with Jesus Christ
 
way 2 go

way 2 go

Well-known member
Timotheos said:
Well, there is no way to post ALL of the scripture that supports the doctrine that the wicked will be destroyed, I would have to post nearly the entire Bible to do that. Here is a partial list:
Psalm 37:10
In just a little while, the wicked will be no more, though you look carefully at his place, he will not be there.
Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish, the enemies of the Lord are like the glory of the pastures, they vanish - like smoke they vanish away.
Psalm 37:38
But transgressors shall be altogether destroyed, the future of the wicked will be cut off.

Malachi 4:1
For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.
Matthew 3:12
He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire




Romans 1:12
For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.




1 Thessalonians 5:3
While people are saying "there is peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them...



2 Peter 2:1 ...bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2 Peter 2:3
And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
2 Peter 2:6
By turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly,
2 Peter 2:12...will also be destroyed in their destruction.
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all physical death


Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine, the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine, the soul who sins shall die.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Luke 13:3
No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will likewise perish
1 Corinthians 15:55-59
O death, where is your victory? O Death, where is your sting? The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
Philippians 1:28
This is a sure to them of their destruction, but of your salvation, and that from God.
Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.
James 1:15
Sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
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all spiritual death

Matthew 10:28
Fear the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna
Matthew 7:13
The gate is wide that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many
2 Thessalonians 1:9-10
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day...
Romans 5:12
Sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned
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physical death and spiritual death

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
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spiritually dead in hell is not eternal life





No destruction of your spirit mentioned as your spirit is eternal.
 
T

Timotheos

New member
way 2 go said:
all physical death




all spiritual death



physical death and spiritual death

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.



spiritually dead in hell is not eternal life





No destruction of your spirit mentioned as your spirit is eternal.
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You forgot Matthew 10:28 where Jesus says "Fear the one who is able destroy both soul and body in Gehenna".
Not everlasting torment.
 
T

Timotheos

New member
way 2 go said:
later in the chapter Jesus mentions ECT
In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth

Luk 13:27 But he will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!'
Luk 13:28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out.



:nono: you do not agree with Jesus Christ
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Excuse me, but I do. The verses you are talking about do not even mention eternal torture. Read John 3:16, I'm so tired of this argument, the Bible doesn't say that anyone goes to hell when they die where they will be tortured alive forever. The Bible specifically states that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Believe whatever hellish torture makes you feel good. You do not agree with Jesus Christ and you will certainly never convince me that God is a sadistic torturer.
 
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Timotheos

New member
Tehmill said:
why do you believe in eternal life but not eternal punishment?
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I believe that those who put their faith in Jesus Christ will receive eternal life, and those who reject Him will not inherit eternal life. Since they do not receive eternal life, they cannot be alive forever being tortured alive. I believe that the eternal punishment is that they are destroyed and they remain destroyed for all eternity.

Why do you believe that the gift of God is eternal life for those who put their faith in Him and those who reject Him ALSO receive eternal life?
 
way 2 go

way 2 go

Well-known member
Timotheos said:
Excuse me, but I do. The verses you are talking about do not even mention eternal torture.
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Luk 13:28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth

Read John 3:16, I'm so tired of this argument, the Bible doesn't say that anyone goes to hell when they die where they will be tortured alive forever. The Bible specifically states that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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Joh 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Believe whatever hellish torture makes you feel good. You do not agree with Jesus Christ and you will certainly never convince me that God is a sadistic torturer.
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Pharisees did not like the warning either .

Mat 22:11 "But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment.
Mat 22:12 And he said to him, 'Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless.
Mat 22:13 Then the king said to the attendants, 'Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen."

Mat 22:15 Then the Pharisees went and plotted how to entangle him in his words
 
Totton Linnet

Totton Linnet

New member
Silver Subscriber
Timotheos said:
I believe that those who put their faith in Jesus Christ will receive eternal life, and those who reject Him will not inherit eternal life. Since they do not receive eternal life, they cannot be alive forever being tortured alive. I believe that the eternal punishment is that they are destroyed and they remain destroyed for all eternity.

Why do you believe that the gift of God is eternal life for those who put their faith in Him and those who reject Him ALSO receive eternal life?
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But they were dead, they were resurrected unto judgement. They were not annihilated, the King shall say

"Depart from me ye cursed into eternal punishment prepared for the devil and his angels"

The devil is inCREDibly evil, so are the angels who followed him, so are men and women who become like him...they deserve their punishment.
 
freelight

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
exposing that satanic nature of ECT in hell......

exposing that satanic nature of ECT in hell......

Bright Raven said:
What is the Lake of Fire for?
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Is a 'lake of fire' mentioned anywhere else in the Bible besides the book of Revelation? This book barely made it into the NT canon, it was rejected by some as being too cryptic,...it can also be translated in various ways, from literal to figurative. Such 'visions' are subject to fantasy.

Fire has the power to incinerate, destroy, transform or purify. The symbology of 'fire' can refer to different things or actions. Even 'God' is called a 'consuming fire', and Jesus baptizes us with the Spirit and FIRE. So 'fire' can serve different purposes and bring about various results, for our GOOD.

It is the nature and will of Love to give life, nurture, empower, purify, enhance or transform the soul into a better state or condition, to fulfill its purpose for being, its reason for existence, and furthermore unfold its innate potential and creativity of LIFE.

ECT in hellfire totally nullifies the divine will and condemns souls to a condition of insanity with no hope of salvation, relief or reformation, ever. Since this belief hinders or is adversarial to God's WILL....it is satanic in nature. If any choose to relish in such deviltry, that reflects their own twisted sense of justice, which has not one iota of compassion or mercy for living souls.
 
KingdomRose

KingdomRose

New member
way 2 go said:
:darwinsm:


"tossed" and "toiling" in the lake of fire still works but torment is better


in your case heaven is symbolic
and everlasting life is symbolic too



:nono:
Luk 16:24"for I am tormented in this flame. "



and now its up to you and the 144,000



naming Lazarus makes it a recounting of an event that actually happened


your spirit will go on


body and soul being destroyed in the lake of fire
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.




Joh 3:18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.



for you shame and everlasting contempt.

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to
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No, naming Lazarus does NOT make it an event that really happened. Is that what your clergyman taught you to keep you hooked on the idea of really roasting somebody in a literal fire? Lazarus was a common name, so Jesus used it to picture "the common people in general." You sneer at my explanation of Luke 16:19-31, but it is truly correct. I hope people will take time to read my post about it.

The last scripture you posted--Dan.12:2--agrees with my viewpoint. The dead go back to dust (Genesis 3:19) and then when Jesus performs the RESURRECTION, they will come back to life. The Bible says nothing about a spirit returning to a body. There are no spirits that leave a body upon death that go on living consciously somewhere else. Nowhere can that be found in the Bible. (Without your twisting the heck out of a scripture!)
 
way 2 go

way 2 go

Well-known member
KingdomRose said:
No, naming Lazarus does NOT make it an event that really happened.
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naming Lazarus makes it a recounting of an event that actually happened

Is that what your clergyman taught you to keep you hooked on the idea of really roasting somebody in a literal fire?
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Jesus taught this:
Luk 16:24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus
to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'


Lazarus was a common name, so Jesus used it to picture "the common people in general."
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:nono:
notice he did not name the rich man as every one knows the
name of rich people but he did name Lazarus the poor person
that no one wants to know

and no evidence of your claim
You sneer at my explanation of Luke 16:19-31, but it is truly correct.
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and no evidence of your claim


The last scripture you posted--Dan.12:2--agrees with my viewpoint.
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how do you twist this ?
Dan 12:2 ..., and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The dead go back to dust (Genesis 3:19)
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body dies and your spirit /you still exist.

and then when Jesus performs the RESURRECTION, they will come back to life.
The Bible says nothing about a spirit returning to a body. There are no spirits that leave a body upon death that go on living consciously somewhere else. Nowhere can that be found in the Bible. (Without your twisting the heck out of a scripture!)
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1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
 
KingdomRose

KingdomRose

New member
way 2 go said:
naming Lazarus makes it a recounting of an event that actually happened


Jesus taught this:
Luk 16:24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus
to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'



:nono:
notice he did not name the rich man as every one knows the
name of rich people but he did name Lazarus the poor person
that no one wants to know

and no evidence of your claim

and no evidence of your claim



how do you twist this ?
Dan 12:2 ..., and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


body dies and your spirit /you still exist.




1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
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Where does it say that the spirit still exists after the body is dead?

Why would "everlasting contempt" NOT be total destruction?

The "Samuel" that "came up" was not Samuel but a demon impersonating him, which they do often, even today.

It could not have been Samuel because:


"THE DEAD ARE CONSCIOUS OF NOTHING". Eccles.9:5
 
way 2 go

way 2 go

Well-known member
KingdomRose said:
Where does it say that the spirit still exists after the body is dead?
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Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.


Joh 5:25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Why would "everlasting contempt" NOT be total destruction?
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you have to exist to feel shame and have contempt

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
The "Samuel" that "came up" was not Samuel but a demon impersonating him, which they do often, even today.
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bible says Samuel
1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy?

It could not have been Samuel because:

"THE DEAD ARE CONSCIOUS OF NOTHING". Eccles.9:5
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Isa 14:9 The place of death is excited that you are coming. Sheol is waking the spirits of all the leaders of the earth for you. Sheol is making the kings stand up from their thrones to meet you.
Isa 14:10 They will make fun of you, saying, "Now you are as dead as we are. Now you are just like us."
 
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Aimiel

Aimiel

Well-known member
KingdomRose said:
Where does it say that the spirit still exists after the body is dead?

Why would "everlasting contempt" NOT be total destruction?

The "Samuel" that "came up" was not Samuel but a demon impersonating him, which they do often, even today.

It could not have been Samuel because:


"THE DEAD ARE CONSCIOUS OF NOTHING". Eccles.9:5
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God's Word, which is not a lie, said that it was Samuel. It was Samuel. He prophesied from the grave. Quite an accomplishment. God is The God of the living. Death is obviously different from your imagined philosophy. Men will be tormented in the Lake of Fire, just as Scriptures say, even though you have imagined otherwise.
 
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Timotheos

New member
Totton Linnet said:
The bible does not say eternal conscious torment....to say it does shows a lying deceitful spirit.

It says eternal punishment
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I agree. The Bible does not say eternal conscious torment, it says eternal punishment. To say that the lost go to eternal conscious torment is saying something that the Bible does not say. The Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed and will be no more. To claim that they will not be destroyed and will exist forever in hell being tormented alive is saying something that the Bible does not say. Since the destruction of the wicked is eternal, they will remain destroyed forever. That is their eternal punishment. The Bible does not say that the wicked will suffer eternal conscious torment, to say that it does "shows a lying deceitful spirit".

I agree with you, but not in the way you expected.
 
way 2 go

way 2 go

Well-known member
Timotheos said:
I agree. The Bible does not say eternal conscious torment, it says eternal punishment. To say that the lost go to eternal conscious torment is saying something that the Bible does not say. The Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed and will be no more. To claim that they will not be destroyed and will exist forever in hell being tormented alive is saying something that the Bible does not say. Since the destruction of the wicked is eternal, they will remain destroyed forever. That is their eternal punishment. The Bible does not say that the wicked will suffer eternal conscious torment, to say that it does "shows a lying deceitful spirit".

I agree with you, but not in the way you expected.
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eternal punishment in eternal fire


Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42
Mat 25:43
Mat 25:44
Mat 25:45
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

not destroyed there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

nowhere does it say the spirit is destroyed

fallen angels are spirits and they are not destroyed
 
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