The death penalty in the USA
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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1. Obviously, other inmates have a right to protection. Although if the other inmates are also those who would be on "death row," we might be in a rather ironic position of protecting them from being killed by others so that WE get to kill them instead.
2. The need for "protecting" the other inmates from a murderer does not necessarily imply that the only option is to kill the murderer. I have some trouble with the notion of justification of the death penalty SOLELY (if this is the case) on the grounds that the state is apparently incapable of protecting other inmates in any other manner.
3. One presumes that the guilt of a person who murders in prison should be somewhat easier to establish beyond a reasonable doubt than in the case of a murder occuring within the general public "on the outside", given the control and monitoring that the state is presumed to exercise over the inmates. Please keep in mind that I am NOT arguing against the death penalty per se - only that we remain cautious about when (and for what crimes) it is imposed.
By the way, point #1 above reminds me of an alternative - currently impractical, but possibly interesting for discussion nevertheless. Several science fiction writers (notably, as I recall, Larry Niven) have in their work suggested that those convicted of certain crimes - including all current capital offenses - would be found to have given up their right to the protections afforded by society, and as punishment would be exiled to a separate "anarchy zone" where there was literally NO law, no protection from each other. IF it were possible to create such a place, with absolute certainty that those sent to it could not return to "normal" society until their sentence was up (assuming they survive the experience, of course), what would you think of something like that as a means of punishment?
LightSon
New member
If it were possible to create such a zone, I might be in favor of it.
I have often thought that it is a poor strategy to incarcerate criminals of differing echelons. In other words, by putting the petty thief in with the grand larcenist, the lessor will get 'trained' to escalate their thinking. By putting the thief in with the murderer, the thief just might learn to play hardball the next time he's let out into society.
Of course, this thinking will break down, if we recognize that a group of petty thieves will no doubt share notes anyway and thereby get more disciplined in their "art".
I am dubious of the state's attempts at rehabilitation. The best they can seem to offer is, "don't get caught again, or its more of the same for you." That is a weak deterrent, and not a very good one. It's very much like public school sex education plan. They offer plenty of good "info" about biology, but without a spiritual moral framework (and yes I am being partisan here), there is no heartfelt reason to avoid procreative pursuits for recreation.
The thief released into society will be tempted to try harder to not get caught. No wonder recitivism is so significant.
Sure. Make an Austrailian type zone for murderers. But throw away the key.
But Lightson, God has created such a zone and has commanded governments to send murderers there. And if the murderer is repentant and turns to God... God will bring them to paradise!
We shouldn't try to fashion our own hell. God's is just fine.
This man-made hell idea reminds me: People want to play God by locking murderers in prison. Some people would rather a murderer be sentenced to life in prison than be executed because they see death as the lighter sentence. They'd rather they suffer or "rot" in prison for decades. One problem is, murderers who are repentant are still forced to endure the "manmade hell."
Also, a person facing a death sentence is more likely to repent than someone who is put in "time out" until they die of old age.
Sorry, but again no individual can possibly be an objective judge of their own perceptions. Individuals suffering from hallucinations can also (and often do!) believe that these erroneous perceptions have "purpose and meaning" when in fact they do not. There is simply no way to "get outside your own head" and judge this, so as to distinguish the two.
This does not mean that there are no such things as "visions" - but I don't see any particularly simple way for a given individual to tell them apart from "hallucinations" on their own.
LightSon
New member
The U.S. is ordained to bear the sword
The U.S. is ordained to bear the sword
Hi Turbo,
First, notice I said “I might” be in favor of it.
Second. I’m not certain I agree that God has “commanded governments to send murderers there”. Please make your case if you feel led. I do not believe the US government is “under” the Mosaic penal code. I DO believe that Romans 13 applies, which makes the government a “[power] ordained of God”. Further, Rom. 13:4 states that this power (our gov) “beareth not the sword in vain”. This gives my government the authority to use capital punishment, but I do not think it requires them to use it. Which is to say government is not required to “send murderers [to the God created zone]” for unrepentant murderers or paradise for the repentant ones. I hope you see my point.
Since we live in a republic form of government, I get to petition government to enact laws which I think are fitting. I do believe in the death penalty, and I want government to use it fairly and certainly more swiftly than they do. But if we (our government) chose to put the death penalty away, I do not think they are violating scripture for the reason I stated above. I would not prefer they do that, but could support their decision NOT to exercise their God given authority to execute murderers and such.
Edited to correct "Originally posted by" reference.
The U.S. is ordained to bear the sword
Hi Turbo,
First, notice I said “I might” be in favor of it.
Second. I’m not certain I agree that God has “commanded governments to send murderers there”. Please make your case if you feel led. I do not believe the US government is “under” the Mosaic penal code. I DO believe that Romans 13 applies, which makes the government a “[power] ordained of God”. Further, Rom. 13:4 states that this power (our gov) “beareth not the sword in vain”. This gives my government the authority to use capital punishment, but I do not think it requires them to use it. Which is to say government is not required to “send murderers [to the God created zone]” for unrepentant murderers or paradise for the repentant ones. I hope you see my point.
Since we live in a republic form of government, I get to petition government to enact laws which I think are fitting. I do believe in the death penalty, and I want government to use it fairly and certainly more swiftly than they do. But if we (our government) chose to put the death penalty away, I do not think they are violating scripture for the reason I stated above. I would not prefer they do that, but could support their decision NOT to exercise their God given authority to execute murderers and such.
If you make an argument based upon Mosaic penal system, then there is no support for US incarcerating folks anyway. I stated earlier that I do not believe the US government is “under” the Mosaic penal code per se; we are not OT Israel. But just as we are authorized to use the sword, we are likewise authorized to enact our own penal code, and if we choose to enact the Mosaic code or any parts of it, that is our prerogative. And who knows, I might support that too.
All your reasoning here is fine with me. I’m generally against life in prison for murderers. Let’s work to get this enacted into law. Our government is ordained of God to do any and all of this, IMO.
Edited to correct "Originally posted by" reference.
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Gerald
Resident Fiend
Re: what is the [i]exact wording[/i] that you are using?
Re: what is the exact wording that you are using?
Regarding the "open heart" thing: I appear to have omitted a word. Sorry about that. What I meant to say is that my heart can't be opened because I don't have one.
Re: what is the exact wording that you are using?
Wimp. I'll be impressed when you do that for 48 days...
Regarding the "open heart" thing: I appear to have omitted a word. Sorry about that. What I meant to say is that my heart can't be opened because I don't have one.
Would you mind posting it, then? Instead of trying to be witty (and failing)?
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Re: Re: what is the [i]exact wording[/i] that you are using?
Re: Re: what is the exact wording that you are using?
2.It would be stupid to go 48 days with out food & water, when I work construction.
or your just in denial!
But it might be a good idea to start a book on it though...:think:
Re: Re: what is the exact wording that you are using?
1.I don't fast to impress anyone & I'm not here for you to be impressed! OK
2.It would be stupid to go 48 days with out food & water, when I work construction.
OK whatever just because you think you don't have one does not mean you don't,You do have one but your heart might be harden
or your just in denial!
Your kidding right? I don't have the time to post it all,it's obvious you you don't know how much time or room that would take.
But it might be a good idea to start a book on it though...:think:
LightSon
New member
Re: Re: Re: what is the [i]exact wording[/i] that you are using?
Re: Re: Re: what is the exact wording that you are using?
Of course Gerald has a heart. He likes to exude cynicism and a certain crushing despair.
The heart can be viewed as a plot of ground or dirt. In some, the ground (heart) is easily pliable and ready to accept seed. In these people, the seeds of faith can take root and grow into beautiful flowering plants which produce fruit.
In others, like Gerald, the ground is hardened and seeds just kind of bounce off. Gerald desperately needs to have the ground of his heart broken up, as it were, so the seeds of the good news of Jesus Christ can take root.
There is hope for you Gerald. I believe you can turn to Christ, even if you aren’t ready to yet.
Re: Re: Re: what is the exact wording that you are using?
Very insightful nomik.
Of course Gerald has a heart. He likes to exude cynicism and a certain crushing despair.
The heart can be viewed as a plot of ground or dirt. In some, the ground (heart) is easily pliable and ready to accept seed. In these people, the seeds of faith can take root and grow into beautiful flowering plants which produce fruit.
In others, like Gerald, the ground is hardened and seeds just kind of bounce off. Gerald desperately needs to have the ground of his heart broken up, as it were, so the seeds of the good news of Jesus Christ can take root.
There is hope for you Gerald. I believe you can turn to Christ, even if you aren’t ready to yet.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what is the [i]exact wording[/i] that you are using?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what is the exact wording that you are using?
:crackup: with your own hands. :darwinsm:
Do you have proof of such said act?
I think your in denial! :chuckle:
It's OK:thumb: I was scared :shocked: of the truth too at one time,so stop beating
your self up over it & give in or like the saying Let go & let GOD :thumb:
:king: JESUS LOVES YA!MAN :angel:
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what is the exact wording that you are using?
OOHH!:noway: AAAAAHHHHHH!:yawn:
:crackup: with your own hands. :darwinsm:
Do you have proof of such said act?
I think your in denial! :chuckle:
It's OK:thumb: I was scared :shocked: of the truth too at one time,so stop beating
your self up over it & give in or like the saying Let go & let GOD :thumb: :king: JESUS LOVES YA!MAN
:angel:
Gerald
Resident Fiend
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what is the [i]exact wording[/i] that you are using?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what is the exact wording that you are using?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what is the exact wording that you are using?
Well, I keep the powder in a jelly jar on my mantlepiece; would you like me to post a picture?
No, I'm not.
And if I do "let go" how will it profit me in the here and now? Don't bore me with notions of a glorious afterlife.It's OK:thumb: I was scared :shocked: of the truth too at one time,so stop beating
Poly
Blessed beyond measure
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what is the [i]exact wording[/i] that you are using?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what is the exact wording that you are using?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what is the exact wording that you are using?
Yes, don't bore him. We don't want to hold his hand on his way to hell.