way 2 go
Well-known member
They will be alive but dead to God just like in this life.
so eternal life is not needed for the unregenerate .
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
They will be alive but dead to God just like in this life.
so eternal life is not needed for the unregenerate .
the second death
way 2 go
Well-known member
words have meaning
-the first death is the body
-the second death is the soul
-am I going too fast for you?
way 2 go
Well-known member
there is physical death , spiritual death and death as a place and none of them are annihilation of the spirit .
1st death is spiritual
Rom_7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.
Eph_2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins.
2nd death is spiritual
Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
also
physical death Gen_7:22 Everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died.
death as a place Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire
way 2 go,
re: "you don't have any verses saying that the spirit of a man is not eternal"
But I didn't make an assertion saying that it isn't eternal. I merely said that I'm not aware of any scripture that says that the spirit in man is inherently eternal. This was in response to your flat out assertion that it is eternal. So I ask you again; what scripture do you have which says that the spirit in man is eternal?
re: "you don't have any verses saying that the spirit of a man is not eternal"
But I didn't make an assertion saying that it isn't eternal. I merely said that I'm not aware of any scripture that says that the spirit in man is inherently eternal. This was in response to your flat out assertion that it is eternal. So I ask you again; what scripture do you have which says that the spirit in man is eternal?
none
way 2 go
Well-known member
spiritual dead and yet alive
way 2 go
Well-known member
and i said you don't have any verses saying that the spirit of a man is not eternal
also this verse again
Ecc 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart,
so which way does the bible point ?
annihilation or eternal
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne
physical death did not annihilate the spirit
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Jesus said eternal punishment
Luk 16:24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'
fire not annihilating the spirit
KingdomRose
New member
Yes....very macabre!! That is the thinking of carnal man, not God.
KingdomRose
New member
So you're saying that Jesus was hallucinating when he thought he spoke to the Devil at, for example, Luke 4:2-13?
KingdomRose
New member
Exactly. The Bible says that the punishment for the wicked and irredeemable is DEATH. Hell-fire advocates go against that, saying that the wicked will have eternal LIFE in hell-fire. What is wrong with that picture?
KingdomRose
New member
You say "they will be alive." But that is not what the Bible says as to the destiny of wicked people. It says they will be DEAD.
KingdomRose
New member
That still doesn't warrent being tortured forever. "DEATH" is the punishment for rejecting God.
KingdomRose
New member
The Bible does not teach that everyone "has an eternal spirit." Where do you get that idea?
:think:
KingdomRose
New member
You made the statement that people have eternal spirits, so the burden of proof is on you. Ecclesiastes 3:11 does not mean that we all have eternal spirits. It means that we all desire to live on and not die. No one is willing to choose the day of his death, as a rule. We have a longing within us to live forever.
Want to try again?
KingdomRose
New member
You contradict yourself.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
More insights, as we go in circles here......
More insights, as we go in circles here......
We've been over this many times before for those following. Way 2 go interprets the 'second death' as meaning only some kind of condition of being 'spiritually dead', and NOT an actual death of the soul itself, its life and consciousness, its very existence. It seems logical however that the 'second death' is a judgment of final or eternal consequence, and is not just a continuation of an unsaved person being in their unregenerated condition, being 'dead in sins'. We might want to differentiate there, because Revelations descriptions and terms are eschatologically significant. We've also covered here as far 'biblically speaking' goes, that 'conditional immortality' seems to have MORE SUPPORT from biblical passages, than ECT. So all this is is running around the mulberry bush with one side being too stubborn to accept a different definition or meaning for their concept of the 'second death'. All this is a clashing of terms with attached meanings and definitions, throw whatever verses you like up, but if you want to 'biblical' about it, I think 'conditional immortality' has more support (while I have a flair towards universalism at times). I personally draw from spiritual teachings and traditions outside of just a 'Bible only' format,...being an eclectic spiritualist and pure universalist, so have insights and opinions about this that stretch outside the box, and some aspects of this that I'm fine being an 'agnostic' about, since there are some things you just have to admit that you DONT KNOW. - all else is either some gnostic experience (personal religious experience or knowing), speculation, point of view or opinion subject to various conditioning.
As I've shared before,...this resource HERE has a vast commentary of biblical support for 'conditional immortality'. The authors challenge any open minded person to consider the evidence provided. See for yourself, be open to research the matter.
I've also earlier in this very thread shared my primary views and reasons for my questioning ECT here (blog post archive of my earlier posts on the subject).
There is also the pivotal doctrine of 'karma' that is instrinsically related to 'punishment' and 'suffering', being the law of sowing and reaping, cause & effect, action and consequence that expands our consideration and assumptions about the subject here. I take on Way 2 go in his thread challenging me here
Finally we reflect on the infinity of love, the eternity and magnitude of God's mercy and wisdom in his divine providence for all souls and see that if we do have true freedom of choice to determine our destiny (be it 'life' or 'death'), then God would allow for one to make a final decision on these matters, or by some all-empowering irresistible grace draw ALL SOULS to himself ultimately, yet this would be 'universalism' of one kind or another. So we see that 'free will' also plays a part in the eschatology of souls, depending on how true individual choice is, and if it is indeed 'sovereign' in determining one's own destiny. In such a case of God giving souls individual sovereignty in this matter, then souls could choose Life or Death for themselves at any point in time, and also have freedom of choice make this 'final' (in making souls immortal, or a soul rejecting life altogether and being disintegrated).
ECT (eternal conscious torment) seems the most depraved, illogical and heinous doctrine sported since the Middle ages, protestants taking the ball and running with it,...heck even Catholicism grants 'purgatory',...and that probably because they saw the unjust severity of ECT, but still nevertheless reserve it for more hardened sinners. Conditional immortality is more rational on different grounds, again back to 'terms' and 'conditions'. Then 'Universalism' has some positive and perhaps rational points but this again has its own terms and conditions, and its own 'proof-texts'. Beyond any 'literalism',....one must fall back on reason, principle, logic, moral sense, philosophical insight in determining the destiny of souls, and if one is a student of truth...BE OPEN to keep reconsidering and researching one's conclusions, because there may be a better more correct or reasonable proposition.
More insights, as we go in circles here......
We've been over this many times before for those following. Way 2 go interprets the 'second death' as meaning only some kind of condition of being 'spiritually dead', and NOT an actual death of the soul itself, its life and consciousness, its very existence. It seems logical however that the 'second death' is a judgment of final or eternal consequence, and is not just a continuation of an unsaved person being in their unregenerated condition, being 'dead in sins'. We might want to differentiate there, because Revelations descriptions and terms are eschatologically significant. We've also covered here as far 'biblically speaking' goes, that 'conditional immortality' seems to have MORE SUPPORT from biblical passages, than ECT. So all this is is running around the mulberry bush with one side being too stubborn to accept a different definition or meaning for their concept of the 'second death'. All this is a clashing of terms with attached meanings and definitions, throw whatever verses you like up, but if you want to 'biblical' about it, I think 'conditional immortality' has more support (while I have a flair towards universalism at times). I personally draw from spiritual teachings and traditions outside of just a 'Bible only' format,...being an eclectic spiritualist and pure universalist, so have insights and opinions about this that stretch outside the box, and some aspects of this that I'm fine being an 'agnostic' about, since there are some things you just have to admit that you DONT KNOW. - all else is either some gnostic experience (personal religious experience or knowing), speculation, point of view or opinion subject to various conditioning.
As I've shared before,...this resource HERE has a vast commentary of biblical support for 'conditional immortality'. The authors challenge any open minded person to consider the evidence provided. See for yourself, be open to research the matter.
I've also earlier in this very thread shared my primary views and reasons for my questioning ECT here (blog post archive of my earlier posts on the subject).
There is also the pivotal doctrine of 'karma' that is instrinsically related to 'punishment' and 'suffering', being the law of sowing and reaping, cause & effect, action and consequence that expands our consideration and assumptions about the subject here. I take on Way 2 go in his thread challenging me here
Finally we reflect on the infinity of love, the eternity and magnitude of God's mercy and wisdom in his divine providence for all souls and see that if we do have true freedom of choice to determine our destiny (be it 'life' or 'death'), then God would allow for one to make a final decision on these matters, or by some all-empowering irresistible grace draw ALL SOULS to himself ultimately, yet this would be 'universalism' of one kind or another. So we see that 'free will' also plays a part in the eschatology of souls, depending on how true individual choice is, and if it is indeed 'sovereign' in determining one's own destiny. In such a case of God giving souls individual sovereignty in this matter, then souls could choose Life or Death for themselves at any point in time, and also have freedom of choice make this 'final' (in making souls immortal, or a soul rejecting life altogether and being disintegrated).
ECT (eternal conscious torment) seems the most depraved, illogical and heinous doctrine sported since the Middle ages, protestants taking the ball and running with it,...heck even Catholicism grants 'purgatory',...and that probably because they saw the unjust severity of ECT, but still nevertheless reserve it for more hardened sinners. Conditional immortality is more rational on different grounds, again back to 'terms' and 'conditions'. Then 'Universalism' has some positive and perhaps rational points but this again has its own terms and conditions, and its own 'proof-texts'. Beyond any 'literalism',....one must fall back on reason, principle, logic, moral sense, philosophical insight in determining the destiny of souls, and if one is a student of truth...BE OPEN to keep reconsidering and researching one's conclusions, because there may be a better more correct or reasonable proposition.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
how can you call it illogical?
eternal salvation balanced against eternal damnation
seems logical to me :idunno: