Ben Masada
New member
The Devil does not exist as a being. The Devil is only an concept to illustrate the inclination inclination in man. There is nothing literal about the Devil.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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The Devil does not exist as a being. The Devil is only an concept to illustrate the inclination inclination in man. There is nothing literal about the Devil.
way 2 go
Well-known member
you say things with out proof.
eternal life for Christians and eternal punishment for the unrighteous .
Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Isa 14:9 The place of death is excited that you are coming. Sheol is waking the spirits of all the leaders of the earth for you. Sheol is making the kings stand up from their thrones to meet you.
Isa 14:10 They will make fun of you, saying, "Now you are as dead as we are. Now you are just like us."
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
ECT is still problematic.......
ECT is still problematic.......
We've addressed Matt. 25:46 .....here and elsewhere.
Also see: "Eternal" Punishment (Matthew 25:46) Is NOT Found In The Greek New Testament.
Throwing at the same ole verses held with the same preconception and prefigured 'definition' over and over again, .....doesn't make it right or rational. In this thread I've (we've) already challenged ECT on principle alone, and on the moral/philosophical dilemma of such a 'belief', - these problems are not just 'solved' by an emphatic 'belief-statement'. It just represents a 'belief' or 'interpretation' of the text. You're still stuck with a 'version' of 'God' who condemns souls to 'eternal suffering' for all eternity, to no end. That is insanity.
If you're offering this 'version' of 'God' to humanity,...you'll likely not get very many converts.
ECT is still problematic.......
We've addressed Matt. 25:46 .....here and elsewhere.
Also see: "Eternal" Punishment (Matthew 25:46) Is NOT Found In The Greek New Testament.
Throwing at the same ole verses held with the same preconception and prefigured 'definition' over and over again, .....doesn't make it right or rational. In this thread I've (we've) already challenged ECT on principle alone, and on the moral/philosophical dilemma of such a 'belief', - these problems are not just 'solved' by an emphatic 'belief-statement'. It just represents a 'belief' or 'interpretation' of the text. You're still stuck with a 'version' of 'God' who condemns souls to 'eternal suffering' for all eternity, to no end. That is insanity.
If you're offering this 'version' of 'God' to humanity,...you'll likely not get very many converts.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
That's one view
- and from a Jewish perspective,...even the character of Satan (not necessarily equated with 'the devil') is but a servant of 'God', having nothing to do with a contrived 'Lucifer' character either - but don't spoil the fun Ben! - you know some systems need to have certain characters in the 'story-line' to 'map' out the theology and better express or personalize the epic struggle between good and evil. - and on one level it doesn't matter if the 'story' is 'historical' or 'mythological' or a blend thereof....it still comes down to HOW its all 'translated' or 'interpreted'.way 2 go,
re: "eternal life for Christians and eternal punishment for the unrighteous ."
If the unrighteous are going to be tortured eternally, they will also have to be given eternal life. What scripture do you have that says that the unsaved will be given immortality and thus eternal life?
re: "eternal life for Christians and eternal punishment for the unrighteous ."
If the unrighteous are going to be tortured eternally, they will also have to be given eternal life. What scripture do you have that says that the unsaved will be given immortality and thus eternal life?
good point
way 2 go
Well-known member
Why would the need to be given eternal life?
They will be alive but dead to God just like in this life.
way 2 go
Well-known member
you have addressed it and are wrong
lies
it says eternal punishment I am not redefining it you are.
It is not right for you to neglect Jesus sacrifice for you
Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation;
you will not escape,
you will pay for your sins and the cost is eternal punishment
unless you accept Jesus as your saviour
God said eternal punishment he could have said it differently
but didn't so he meant what he said so choose wisely whom you are going to serve
"And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve,"
Jos 24:19 But Joshua said to the people, "You are not able to serve the LORD, for he is a holy God. He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions or your sins.
Jos 24:20 If you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, then he will turn and do you harm and consume you, after having done you good."
repent
Num 14:34 According to the number of the days in which you spied out the land, forty days, a year for each day, you shall bear your iniquity forty years, and you shall know my displeasure.'
Num 14:35 I, the LORD, have spoken. Surely this will I do to all this wicked congregation who are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall come to a full end, and there they shall die."
Num 14:36 And the men whom Moses sent to spy out the land, who returned and made all the congregation grumble against him by bringing up a bad report about the land—
Num 14:37 the men who brought up a bad report of the land—died by plague before the LORD.
Luk 19:27 But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.'"
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
way 2 go
Well-known member
love hates evil
Rom 12:9 Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good.
way 2 go
Well-known member
1 you cant meet the requirements hence Jesus sacrifice.
Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation;
it is so great because it is eternal punishment
2 so you would have God call evil good and good evil ?
Isa_5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
way 2 go,
re: "it is so great because it is eternal punishment"
And for some ghastly reason you want the punishment to be torture even tho scripture says that the punishment for sin is death. Show me a scripture that says that anyone - other than the devil as the KJV has it - will be given immortality and tortured for eternity.
re: "so you would have God call evil good and good evil ?"
What!!!!! Where on earth did I even imply such a thing?
re: "it is so great because it is eternal punishment"
And for some ghastly reason you want the punishment to be torture even tho scripture says that the punishment for sin is death. Show me a scripture that says that anyone - other than the devil as the KJV has it - will be given immortality and tortured for eternity.
re: "so you would have God call evil good and good evil ?"
What!!!!! Where on earth did I even imply such a thing?
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Yes, i'm afraid that a handful of years on earth, getting it wrong and making many mistakes does not justify eternal suffering.
way 2 go
Well-known member
everyone has an eternal spirit and if it were possible
for you to pay for your own sins Jesus would
not have had to have been crucified .
Well then that makes life unfair. The deck is stacked, loaded
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
who said life was fair? :idunno:
way 2 go
Well-known member
you don't have any verses saying that the spirit of a man is not eternal
Ecc 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart,