Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Aimiel

Well-known member
The Bible never ONCE says that God will torture anyone alive in hellfire forever. That is a made up story by people who can't and won't accept what the Bible says.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".

"Whosover believes in Him shall not PERISH but will have Eternal LIFE"

If you're going to only read PART of your Bible, why even HAVE One?

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

After death comes: JUDGMENT. Why do you continually ignore the facts stated in Scripture. You claim to be Christian, but if you ignore God's Words, you're not Christian, you're trying to start a cult. :duh:
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
:nono:
you disagree but can not counter my verses with sound doctrine.



Kingdom Rose replies:

Revelation 20:12 does not state that those resurrected people are spirits.

Matthew 25:46 does not teach that the wicked live on forever. It says they are eternally PUNISHED. Death is an eternal punishment.
No, the Lake of Fire is eternal punishment, death is where the lost transition from this life into judgment. At judgment one's eternal fate is decided. Had death been the end of life entirely, Jesus should never have said: "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." -- Matthew 18:6
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
The word 'aion' and its derivitives still indicates an indefinite period of time, an age, a dispensation.

aiōnios = eternal, everlasting


Love does not commit any soul to a state of eternal suffering TO NO END. That's insanity.

no you commit yourself to eternal punishment
by rejecting Jesus Christ payment for your sin.


The life of God (essence of immortality) that a soul receives as a gift from God is the 'eternal' (divine life), so that life itself is of the divine nature,....in this sense that soul has 'eternal life'.

you have an eternal spirit Christians have eternal life
don't muddy the definitions

That soul puts on "immortality". Aionion life also refers to given dispensation or 'age' where the kingdom of God is enjoyed, the millennium or kingdom age. It is life enjoyed for an age, or into the ages.
:nono:
no the Christians flesh has to put on immortality.
1Co 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
The old belief of souls being tortured in everlasting hellfire is obsolete, illogical and insane.

your going to live it unless you repent,
and I am sure you will have better descriptions for it once your there
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Exactly. Love does not torture people forever, and the Bible never ONCE says that God will torture anyone alive in hellfire forever. That is a made up story by people who can't and won't accept what the Bible says.

Jesus paid the price because it is eternal punishment

Mat_25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
aiōnios = eternal, everlasting


False,...and we've had clear video lessons on 'aion', 'aionios', 'aionion', 'olam', etc. here

Aionios simply means 'pertaining to an age' or to the 'ages'. Aion = age. An age is period of time that has a beginning and end,...like a dispensation. You still display ignorance of the actual etymology of this word, and how to properly translate it by its original meaning (in its various implications and contexts), and not a slanted English translation or 'assumption' which 'tradition' imposes upon the text. These writers did NOT write in English. That's why you have to go back to original languages, etymology, ancient/modern use, also the Hebrew word equivalents like 'olam', etc.

Another excellent article on this subject is [URL="http://www.mercifultruth.com/eternity.html"]here[/URL].

Consider:

Ellicott's Commentary on the Whole Bible (Matt. 25:46). Everlasting punishment--life eternal. The two adjectives represent the same Greek word, aionios it must be admitted that the Greek word which is rendered "eternal" does not, in itself, involve endlessness, but rather, duration, whether through an age or succession of ages, and that it is therefore applied in the N.T. to periods of time that have had both a beginning and ending (Rom. 16:25).

Remember,....an 'aion' is an 'age'. An 'age' is prescribed period or duration of time. Understand? Even the term 'aionios life' refers to life enduring for an age, it is unto an age or ages. The term 'aionios life' does NOT equate or mean 'immortality'. There is a wholly different greek word for 'immortality' and it is NOT 'aion' or any of its derivitives. 'Eternal life' then in the original languages infers life extending thru an 'age', a given dispensation, an epoch. Believers LATER if they qualify and commit to God's will attain 'immortality'...and it is only then that they can live indefinitely/endlessly...because they SHARE in the immortality (divine nature) of God himself.


no you commit yourself to eternal punishment
by rejecting Jesus Christ payment for your sin.

I committ myself to no such misconception of yours. While my interpretation of Christ's "atonement" may differ from your own,...I do not reject Jesus as being our Savior and Lord....but may question and challenge certain aspects of the primitive 'belief' about 'blood-atonement'.


you have an eternal spirit Christians have eternal life
don't muddy the definitions

I'll add to my former statement that 'eternal life' (aionios life) does not necessarily equate 'immortality', as it refers to life that is given to endure for an 'age', or into the 'ages',...its dispensational. However, when a soul "puts on immortality" to use Paul's terms....it is only THEN that it becomes immortal, sharing in the immortality of God, the perfection and ultimacy of the 'divine nature'. I suggest noting the difference. A deeper study in the linked article above will help to show this, that is if you're willing to research and learn more about the subject or if you'd like to debate or refute the information provided. I find that it holds, further proving that ECT is erroneous.


:nono:
no the Christians flesh has to put on immortality.
1Co 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

Well, I think this is a 'carnal' imposition into what Paul is really speaking about, since the resurrection body is a "spiritual body". The physical body is sown (buried, returned back to the earthly elements)...and it arises in its heavenly form, a spiritual body. So, the resurrection is essentially 'spiritual' in nature, it is of a heavenly form, not carnal. Now we can split hairs here on 'terms' and where the 'soul' exists in all this, getting deeper into the context here, but perhaps another time.

your going to live it unless you repent,
and I am sure you will have better descriptions for it once your there

Well,....I hold to the fundamental reality that God is LOVE. That love is infinite. I'll just leave you to contemplate that for awhile :angel:
 

lifeisgood

New member
The Bible never ONCE says that God will torture anyone alive in hellfire forever. That is a made up story by people who can't and won't accept what the Bible says.

So, you do not believe that in Luke 16 Jesus is warning about eternal Hell?

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".

But, for those who are His.

"Whosover believes in Him shall not PERISH but will have Eternal LIFE"

Yes, that's the condition --- 'believes in Him' --- otherwise, there is eternal Hell; which people go there by their own volition, for Hell was not made for man.
 

Timotheos

New member
If you're going to only read PART of your Bible, why even HAVE One?

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

After death comes: JUDGMENT. Why do you continually ignore the facts stated in Scripture. You claim to be Christian, but if you ignore God's Words, you're not Christian, you're trying to start a cult. :duh:

I have read the entire Bible, including the part about the judgment for sin which the Bible says is DEATH.
IF you are going to continually ignore God's Words, why do you blame me for accepting what it says???

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.
Yes, I agree with that. And the result of the judgment for those who reject God's offer of eternal life is death, according to the Bible. The Bible even calls this "The Second Death". If you are going to make the false claim that I ignore what the Bible says, at least try to post a scripture that does not AGREE WITH WHAT I AM SAYING!!!
 

Timotheos

New member
So, you do not believe that in Luke 16 Jesus is warning about eternal Hell?
I believe what Luke 16 says, but it does not say anything about eternal Hell. Please re-read the parable.



But, for those who are His.
YES! That is what I have been saying all along. Eternal life is conditional on the basis of faith in Jesus Christ. "The gift of God is eternal LIFE IN Christ Jesus our Lord."



Yes, that's the condition --- 'believes in Him' --- otherwise, there is eternal Hell; which people go there by their own volition, for Hell was not made for man.
The condition is "Belief in Him", but the Bible does not say "otherwise there is eternal Hell", the Bible says the gift of God is eternal life, otherwise there is no eternal life, a condition called "Death".
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Those who are not in Christ Jesus do not receive the gift of God, which is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. The Bible says that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. That means that whosoever rejects Him WILL perish and will not have eternal life.
 

lifeisgood

New member
Exactly. Love does not torture people forever...

Correct.

and the Bible never ONCE says that God will torture anyone alive in hellfire forever.

Correct.

That is a made up story by people who can't and won't accept what the Bible says.

Incorrect. Hell was created for the devil and his henchmen (Matthew 25:41).

MAN goes to hell by their own volition for they reject the only way not to go to eternal hell --- Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary.

The decision to NOT go to Hell is on man's hand now for God has done everything He can for man not to go to Hell --- God provided Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary.

It is NOT God's fault if man goes to eternal Hell. It is man's decision to go there, for God has already provided the way for man not to go there.
 

Timotheos

New member
Jesus paid the price because it is eternal punishment

Mat_25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Think about it. The price Jesus paid when he took away our sins is DEATH on the cross. NOT eternal conscious torment in eternal fire. IF you are correct, THEN Jesus Christ is STILL in the eternal fire being roasted alive forever for all eternity! We know that isn't true because many eyewitnesses saw Him Ascend into heaven! He DIED on the cross, paying the penalty for sin that you and I owe, which is death. And He rose from death and ascended into heaven.

Think about it, if you are correct then Jesus did NOT pay the price for our sins which you claim is eternal conscious torment in Hell.
 

Timotheos

New member
go ahead dude - stick your fingers in your ears and keep on ignoring Rev 14:9-11 :idunno:

timmy the chimp:

I just believe what the Bible says instead of what YOU CLAIM it says.

Rev 14:9-11 does NOT say that people go to hell when they die where they will be tortured alive forever. Even if it did, Rev 14 does not Trump all of the scripture that specifically states that the unrepentant will perish and will be no more.
 

lifeisgood

New member
I believe what Luke 16 says, but it does not say anything about eternal Hell. Please re-read the parable.

Oh, c'mon Timotheos. Abraham was in Paradise and continued to be there until Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross; which was a long time. I mean a long time. The man in Hell is still there. He is not in Heaven with Jesus Christ and Abraham.

Isn't it amazing how when we do not like something in the Bible, we reject it making our own ideas as what it means. There is the motive as to why there are so many denominations.

YES! That is what I have been saying all along. Eternal life is conditional on the basis of faith in Jesus Christ. "The gift of God is eternal LIFE IN Christ Jesus our Lord."

Therefore, eternal Hell is also conditional --- the ones there have rejected "The gift of God"; together with the Devil and his henchmen.

The condition is "Belief in Him", but the Bible does not say "otherwise there is eternal Hell", the Bible says the gift of God is eternal life, otherwise there is no eternal life, a condition called "Death".
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Those who are not in Christ Jesus do not receive the gift of God, which is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. The Bible says that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. That means that whosoever rejects Him WILL perish and will not have eternal life.

Every single person in the world is DEAD now.

Only Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary resurrects a person NOW so that we can live with Him then.

If Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary is rejected then that person CANNOT be resurrected NOW, therefore, eternal Hell awaits them.
 

Timotheos

New member
Incorrect. Hell was created for the devil and his henchmen (Matthew 25:41).
Incorrect. Matthew 25:41 does not say "Hell was created for the devil and his henchmen".
Matthew 25:41 says that the everlasting fire was prepared for the devil and his angels.
Everlasting fire, just like ALL fires burns up what goes into it.
 

Timotheos

New member
Every single person in the world is DEAD now.

Oh comeon "Life is Good". Look at the junk you are expecting me to accept on nothing but faith in YOUR word. I am alive, you are alive, it is baloney that "Every single person in the world is DEAD now".

Think about the verbal gymnastics you have to go to in order to defend your doctrine. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. These words from the Bible mean exactly what they say.
 

lifeisgood

New member
Think about it. The price Jesus paid when he took away our sins is DEATH on the cross. NOT eternal conscious torment in eternal fire. IF you are correct, THEN Jesus Christ is STILL in the eternal fire being roasted alive forever for all eternity! We know that isn't true because many eyewitnesses saw Him Ascend into heaven! He DIED on the cross, paying the penalty for sin that you and I owe, which is death. And He rose from death and ascended into heaven.

Think about it, if you are correct then Jesus did NOT pay the price for our sins which you claim is eternal conscious torment in Hell.

Jesus NEVER and I mean NEVER went to burning Hell.

The sin of man is the rejection of Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary --- the only way NOT to go to eternal Hell. Man goes to eternal Hell out of their own volition.
 

lifeisgood

New member
Oh comeon "Life is Good". Look at the junk you are expecting me to accept on nothing but faith in YOUR word. I am alive, you are alive, it is baloney that "Every single person in the world is DEAD now".

Think about the verbal gymnastics you have to go to in order to defend your doctrine. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. These words from the Bible mean exactly what they say.

NOT MY word but what the Bible says.

Man is dead in their trespasses NOW.
Man is made alive by accepting the Gift of God which is Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary now.

Barred man's acceptance of God's gift now, man continues to be eternally dead then as he is now.

That is not what lifeisgood says, it is what the Bible says.
 

lifeisgood

New member
Incorrect. Matthew 25:41 does not say "Hell was created for the devil and his henchmen".
Matthew 25:41 says that the everlasting fire was prepared for the devil and his angels.
Everlasting fire, just like ALL fires burns up what goes into it.

You are thinking of physical fire; which is not God's fire.
 

Timotheos

New member
You are thinking of physical fire; which is not God's fire.

Are you making the claim that God's fire cannot burn up what is put into it?
Do you have any proof of that? Do you have any scripture which backs up your claim, or should I just take your word for it?

However, if you are interested, I have proof that God's fire actually does burn up what is put into it.
Matthew 3:12 says "He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." The Greek word that is translated "burn up" is κατακαύσει which means "he will burn up" (not surprising, really). "From kata and kaio; to burn down (to the ground), i.e. Consume wholly -- burn (up, utterly)."

I'm sorry, but you simply have not proven that those who are destroyed by God's fire will actually remain undestroyed and "on fire" forever in hell being tortured alive. If you accept what the Bible says, you should accept that the unrepentant will be completely destroyed.
 

Timotheos

New member
NOT MY word but what the Bible says.

Man is dead in their trespasses NOW.
Man is made alive by accepting the Gift of God which is Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary now.

Barred man's acceptance of God's gift now, man continues to be eternally dead then as he is now.

That is not what lifeisgood says, it is what the Bible says.

I'm sorry, but the Bible simply does not say that "Every single person in the world is dead now."
You will have to do better if you expect me to believe that, perhaps by posting a scripture verse that ACTUALLY SAYS "Every single person in the world is dead now." Good luck with that. In the meantime, I will continue to believe what the Bible says instead of what you people claim that it says. Is that okay with you?
 

Timotheos

New member
Jesus NEVER and I mean NEVER went to burning Hell.
I agree. So do you admit that under your doctrine that the penalty for sin is to be sent to burning Hell, that Jesus did not pay the penalty for sin?

The sin of man is the rejection of Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary --- the only way NOT to go to eternal Hell. Man goes to eternal Hell out of their own volition.
I'm sorry, but the Bible simply does not say that. It says that the only way to have eternal life is by faith in Jesus Christ. Whosoever believes in Him shall not PERISH but will have ETERNAL LIFE. The Bible also never once says "Man goes to eternal Hell out of their own volition." You are making a lot of claims that the Bible doesn't support. Are you aware of this?
 
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