Theology Club: Is MAD doctrine correct?

intojoy

intojoy

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Jerry Shugart said:
Just a simple question for you. Do you believe that a person is born of God when he believes that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God...For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.1:1-5).​

You say that you cannot understand a half of what I say but now we will see if you believe what is so plainly stated in the Scriptures.

Yes or no?

Do you believe that a person is born of God when he believes that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?
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Abraham was born of God. He did not need to believe in the death burial and resurrection to be born from above, all he needed was to believer the promise of God. He did and went thru regeneration. David was born again of God - why do you think he could write scripture?
 
Nick M

Nick M

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godrulz said:
I agreed that a couple uses of sanctification are equated with justification and are past tense to those who are addressed as believers. This does not negate the present and future tenses also used of the concept. There is an initial setting apart as holy (words have a range of meaning) AND an ongoing working out of His life in us over time cooperatively (hence the exhortations and imperatives hyper-grace error downplays or denies). It is both/and, not either/or.

Instead of looking at all relevant verses, you get ostrich syndrome to retain a simplistic, wrong view. This is not teachable and does not make you credible as a teacher.
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I am hoping intojoy, Shasta, or some other poster who says grace was always the message and the DBR was preached in the red letters, would correct godrulz who says you can sin your way out of salvation.

godrulz said:
You are wrong to think a holy God is deaf, dumb, and blind.
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And address the following regarding James and Paul, and how they refer to Abraham while uncircumcised and then circumcised.


intojoy said:
If Abraham believed God and God credited to him the righteousness of God that means he was justified by grace he was saved.

Isn't that what it says?
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Romans 4

10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.

Once again, the gospel of circumcision is not the gospel of uncircumcision.

James is not wrong.

James 2

20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Paul mentions Abraham before circumcision. James mentions him afterwards. Why is this so hard for you all? I think you are not wrong, you are evil and being deceptive.
 
intojoy

intojoy

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There is no covenant of circumcision.
There is no covenant of grace.
That's where you are prideful bro.

There are 8 covenants
Edenic Adamic Noahic Abrahamic Land Mosaic Davidic and New

There is the Gospel of the Messianic Kingdom (preached by Yeshua and John B) and there is the Gospel of the Cross preached by Yeshua and the Apostles.

Salvation in the time before the cross was by grace thru faith in the revealed word of God plus nothing. The content of faith was evolving and only Isaiah revealed the death of Messiah as the sacrifice for sin. Therefore Abraham could not have placed his faith in the cross, he did not know.

There is no covenant of circumcision and no gospel of circumcision. Circumcision is (still is folks) the token of the Abrahamic Covenant.

Selah

:)
 
intojoy

intojoy

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Nick M said:
I am hoping intojoy, Shasta, or some other poster who says grace was always the message and the DBR was preached in the red letters, would correct godrulz who says you can sin your way out of salvation.



And address the following regarding James and Paul, and how they refer to Abraham while uncircumcised and then circumcised.

Grulz - the requirement of entering the kingdom of heaven is God's righteousness. Not ours after reviving Christ. But God's righteousness that is attained by faith not works.

Paul uses the works in a theological sense and Jacob does not. Jacob uses works not theological but practically.

Paul circumcised Timothy because of the Abrahamic Covenant.

The means of submission to the 613 provisions of the Mosaic Covenant was circumcision. But circumcision was the token of the Abrahamic covenant some 400 years before the Law if Moses (which was temporarily added and then shut down) was given.


Romans 4

10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.

Once again, the gospel of circumcision is not the gospel of uncircumcision.

James is not wrong.

James 2

20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Paul mentions Abraham before circumcision. James mentions him afterwards. Why is this so hard for you all? I think you are not wrong, you are evil and being deceptive.
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Nick M

Nick M

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There is no good news in circumcision? Does the Lord Jesus Christ know? Better cancel swimming lessons.
 
way 2 go

way 2 go

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intojoy said:
There is no covenant of circumcision.


There is no covenant of circumcision and no gospel of circumcision. Circumcision is (still is folks) the token of the Abrahamic Covenant.
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:mock:

Act 7:8 And he gave him the covenant of circumcision. And so Abraham became the father of Isaac, and circumcised him on the eighth day, and Isaac became the father of Jacob, and Jacob of the twelve patriarchs.
 
intojoy

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way 2 go said:
:mock:

Act 7:8 And he gave him the covenant of circumcision. And so Abraham became the father of Isaac, and circumcised him on the eighth day, and Isaac became the father of Jacob, and Jacob of the twelve patriarchs.
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And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God.” And God said to Abraham, “As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations. This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised. You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” (*Genesis‬ *17‬:*7-14‬ ESV)
 
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godrulz

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Jerry Shugart said:
Just a simple question for you. Do you believe that a person is born of God when he believes that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God...For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.1:1-5).​

You say that you cannot understand a half of what I say but now we will see if you believe what is so plainly stated in the Scriptures.

Yes or no?

Do you believe that a person is born of God when he believes that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?
Click to expand...

All truth is not in one verse. John also assumes other truths in this proof text. I once had mental assent to the truth of Christ/Christianity, but was not born again (head vs heart). There are people that could agree intellectually with that statement, but not truly trust the person and work of Christ alone for salvation (involves knowledge, assent, trust, notitia, assensus, fiducia according to the Reformers).

You could find a verse where Paul talks about the Son of God, but that does not mean I Cor. 15 about the resurrection as gospel truth was not necessary.

The person and work of Christ cannot be arbitrarily divorced like you do to retain a wrong preconceived idea.

If a person recognizes the Deity, death, resurrection of Christ (unlike Muslims) and has more than mental assent like Satan does, then they will be born again (Rom. 10:9-10; Jn. 1:12; Jn. 3:16; I Jn. 5:11-13).

The gospel includes truths about God, man, Christ, repentant faith/continuance in the faith. Not all legs of the stool are always in one verse.

If one does not believe that God exists, they will not be saved. If one believes Jesus is Son of God (Mormons claim to with semantical issues), they may or may not be saved. The true person and work of Christ is necessary (a dead Messiah who did not rise does not save).

Paul was not the first or only one to understand these things (read John, Peter, etc. closely...you are not as bad as Nick for rejecting John).
 
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godrulz

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SaulToPaul said:
Why so dramatic?

Peter preached the gospel for 3 years, he preached that Jesus is the Christ, but had no clue about the cross.

This is a fact.
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Peter talked about the death of Christ and knew about the cross, empty tomb, resurrection. Read Acts and his letters again. He was a fisherman and did not flesh out the theology as much as Paul did. There is no basis for salvation apart from the death and resurrection of Christ. You underestimate Peter and the Spirit/Christ and overestimate Paul.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

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godrulz said:
All truth is not in one verse.
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I never said that it was. Either the following is true or it is not:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God...For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.1:1-5).​

John says that those who believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, are born of God. But you do not believe that truth:

John also assumes other truths in this proof text.
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According to your ideas a person cannot be born of God just by believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. According to you what John says at 1 John 5:1-5 ASSUMES other truths!

All you do is to deny what John clearly says. You add a condition to what it takes to be born of God, a condition which you just make up out of thin air--"John also assumes other truths in this proof text."

You say that you believe the Scriptures but when a specific unconditional statement from the Bible contradicts your ideas you just add a condition.
 
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godrulz

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Does Jn. 1:1 prove the hypostatic union? Does it reveal or prove the humanity of Christ?

Does Jn. 1:14 factor in? By itself, would it be a denial of His Deity?

I believe inspired Pauline and Johannine truth properly exegeted in light of all relevant truth.

I will not play peek and point and hang myself like Judas.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

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godrulz said:
Does Jn. 1:1 prove the hypostatic union? Does it reveal or prove the humanity of Christ?

Does Jn. 1:14 factor in? By itself, would it be a denial of His Deity?

I believe inspired Pauline and Johannine truth properly exegeted in light of all relevant truth.

I will not play peek and point and hang myself like Judas.
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All you do is to say nothing about the meaning of 1 John 5:1-5 and instead try to change the subject in the hope that no one will notice that you have no answers to what I said about that passage.
 
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