Theology Club: Is MAD doctrine correct?

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
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I agree He did affirm the law (Gal 4:4). He told them that they "ought to have tithed." My point was that He always taught the essence not the letter. In the New Covenant the essence, or righteous intent of the moral law is fulfilled by our dependence upon the Spirit who moves inside and writes the Law on our heart and minds. Jesus did not teach like the rabbis which is why His teachings are unique and have always been accepted as relevant and imperative since the earliest centuries of the Church. That being said the Mosaic Covenant is over now. Christ ended it and fulfilled it when He made a new one.
Can you support this with evidence?

Obviously I don't know.
Just show where you got, from Scripture, the time frame for Paul's story from conversion to Barnabas joining him to Acts 15 to Antioch in Galatians 2, etc. Also how you got that they were in a particular order.
 

Shasta

Well-known member
=way 2 go;4023242]if the Jews had not been not cut off they would have received their
kingdom , then 1000 yr reign ...and we would not be here.

Jer 18:9-10

God very often makes conditional promises knowing that man will default on them. With His infinite knowledge of all counter-factuals knows all the "ifs" you have mentioned and more besides. He also knows the choices people will actually make and is able to inculcate even their rebellion into His plan.

Paul deals with this in Romans 9 which deals with the fate of nations, specifically that of Jew and Gentile (which is everyone else).

22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

God put up with a lot of apostate Israel but He did in order to do something spectacular that would be worldwide in scope and enjoyed by "vessels of mercy" which is that united assembly of Jews and Gentiles, called out from among the world to be His Church.

Then he quotes Hosea who had said long ago that those who were not God's people would become his children (Romans 9:25-26). He also quotes Isaiah who prophesied that the majority of Israel would not opt to be a part of this promise but would reject the Savior (Romans 9:27-28). The question then remains whether this was a consequence of their own choice or whether or not God made them do it. At least this is the way modern Christians might frame it. The vessels are shaped to a certain destiny but that is based on their decisions. Nobody deliberately decides to come under judgement. They come under judgment for something they do. Nevertheless, a place will be found in the plan of God for rebels though it will not likely be the role they would want to play.

When Paul explains "why" judgment and grace was shown he says that Gentiles did not pursue righteousness but they attained it nevertheless because they approached Jesus in faith. Israel, however, pursuing a law of righteousness (in their own strength). They did not arrive at because they did not pursue it by faith, but by works (Romans 9:30-32).

God did not provide a special Jewish path or practice. Both Jew and Gentile came to the savior together by faith in Jesus Christ. The misconception that a Jew could obtain right standing with God through being circumcised, keeping Sabbath, participating in festivals and in temple ceremonies is just the kind of works he is describing here...and what is a "Jewish gospel" except something along those lines.




Saul-
killer of Christians , a Pharisee zealous for the law (hated gentiles)

Jesus showed Saul grace so Paul could teach us grace apart from the law

The conversion of many wicked men throughout history revealed the testimony of God's grace.

i know Peter ate with gentiles

Act 10:14-15
Peter had the bad news broken to him in that verse Jews were no
longer Gods exalted people ,now we are all the same ,saved by faith,
apart from the law of circumcision {btw bad news = no kingdom}

Israel was cast away when Saul was chosen
Rom 11:15 Act 9:6

I do not see how you can make such arbitrary demarcation
based on the date of Paul's conversion. Gentiles were born again before then and Jews continued to be afterward. It is more logical to say that God began to dispense with the Old Covenant as soon as Jesus began the New. After all, the outpouring of the Spirit was a promise of the New Covenant. Since THE gospel had not been preached everywhere I think it's fair to say many Old Covenant people were in transition .



Mat 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithes of mint and dill and cummin, and you have left undone the weightier matters of the Law, judgment, mercy, and faith. You ought to have done these and not to leave the other undone.

Jesus wanted Israel to not be hypocrites

It is even more than that. They were majoring on minors and ignoring substantive matters affecting human will and the divine nature
 

Shasta

Well-known member
Go ahead and show this in the red letters real quick if you don't mind. Meaning him telling them he was dying for their sin, show where he explained Isaiah 53, the Passover, how it all related to him and how he said to enter into life.

Allow me.

Matthew 5

18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.


Matthew 23

Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.


Rather than go on and on and on with the requirements to enter the kingdom of heaven...I will respond with a quick one from Paul.

17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

Romans 7

10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.

The summative teaching on the necessity and effect of Jesus' suffering on the cross was delivered during the encounters He had after the Resurrection first with a group of disciples on the road and then to the Twelve. About the first encounter the scriptures had this to say:

Then he said unto them,[I] O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses (the TORAH) and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself[/I] (Luke 24:25-27)

Of His meeting with the Twelve the Bible had this to say:

44 And he said unto them , These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. [/I]

He then does a work in their spirits so they would be able to see the truth from a spiritual perspective.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them,

Then He took all these truths and brought them together into a succinct message they would preach.

Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48And ye are witnesses of these things.

I don't know what you think but so far this sounds pretty comprehensive and it sounds like the basic primitive gospel that was preached, the message of the cross that had the power to save all who believed.

Finally Jesus tells them to wait for the empowering of the Spirit.

49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
The summative teaching on the necessity and effect of Jesus' suffering on the cross was delivered during the encounters He had after the Resurrection first with a group of disciples on the road and then to the Twelve. About the first encounter the scriptures had this to say:

Then he said unto them,[I] O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses (the TORAH) and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself[/I] (Luke 24:25-27)

Of His meeting with the Twelve the Bible had this to say:

44 And he said unto them , These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. [/I]

He then does a work in their spirits so they would be able to see the truth from a spiritual perspective.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them,

Then He took all these truths and brought them together into a succinct message they would preach.

Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48And ye are witnesses of these things.

I don't know what you think but so far this sounds pretty comprehensive and it sounds like the basic primitive gospel that was preached, the message of the cross that had the power to save all who believed.

Finally Jesus tells them to wait for the empowering of the Spirit.

49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Which part of these passages is Jesus telling them that His death and resurrection is for them; for the forgiveness of their sins?
 

Shasta

Well-known member
Can you support this with evidence?


Just show where you got, from Scripture, the time frame for Paul's story from conversion to Barnabas joining him to Acts 15 to Antioch in Galatians 2, etc. Also how you got that they were in a particular order.

Jesus not merely a Rabbi reinforcing the principles of the Old Covenant. People in that time saw that. When the officers of the Pharisees who had been to hear Jesus returned, and we asked "Why did you not seize Him" they answered Never man spake like this man. 47 Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived? 48 Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him? (John 7:46-48). Jesus spoke truths never before heard (Matthew 13:35)


Many matters that were considered major in the Mosaic covenant Jesus scarcely addressed at all or did so in a way that re-directed them to the motive, essence and righteous intent of the law rather than to the letter. From an incident that involving ritual hand washing Jesus, redirected them from that tradition to the moral obligation they had towards their parents which they had found a way to circumvent. Then He says something which taken at face value contradicted the entire practice of eating kosher, a major part of Judaism (Mark 7:14-16)

The origin of the Sabbath pre-dated Moses but Moses is the one who wrote it down and made it a law punishable by death. The Pharisees had established numerous laws designed to keep people from doing any conceivable kind of "work." It seems that under the Old Covenant keeping Sabbath was a service a man rendered God. In fact the first Sabbath breaker was killed for nothing more than gathering sticks (Numbers 15:32-36) Jesus turned it around, citing occasions where men did break Sabbath saying "man was not made for the Sabbath the Sabbath was made for man" (Mark 2:23-26)

It was okay to rescue an animal, prepare something to eat for the hungry or to heal the sick on the Sabbath if a person were hungry. Mercy and love trumped over legal ritual. The era of Moses was passing away. Now there was a new sheriff in town or as Jesus put it “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.” (Mark 2:28)

These are but a few of many examples. Every time Jesus said, "you have heard it said...but I say.." He is referencing a practice based upon Old Covenant statutes. He answers by directing them back to the root causes and remedies. Often what Jesus said was deeper and more demanding than the law of Moses. For instance, not only were they not to commit murder and adultery they were not to have an attitude of hate or to think lustful thoughts. Marriage to Jesus was not just a contractual arrangement but a spiritual act, that was not automatically dissolved by divorce. People were expected not only to love their friends or even fellow Jews but even enemies. That love transcended even the boundary between them and the hated Samaritans. If the hated Roman occupier compelled them to carry their gear one mile, then they were to carry it two. This was not Judaism.

The moral commands concern God's will for humanity. Jesus Himself perfectly fulfilled it (Matt 5:17) and later became our living template. Jesus and the Apostles after him said God's laws are fulfilled in the one law of love. However, we cannot become like Him unless and until the Spirit moves within and enables us (Romans 8:3-4, Hebrews 8:10, Ezekiel 36:27, 36, 2 Corinthians 3:2-4),

Jesus did not come to patch up the Old Wineskin of the Mosaic Covenant but to make a New Covenant and then (after the Resurrection) fill it with His own Spirit. Jesus did not speak as the old rabbis. He spoke with authority words. "My words," He said, "Are spirit and life." The fulfillment of the promise would come later, after His resurrection when the "water" of the Holy Spirit would fall upon them (John7:37, Isaiah 44:3).
 

Shasta

Well-known member
Which part of these passages is Jesus telling them that His death and resurrection is for them; for the forgiveness of their sins?

Luke 24:44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalmsmust be fulfilled.”
45Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,


Jesus did not merely allude to the fact that He had fulfilled the scriptures He opened their minds so they could understand it spiritually. When Jesus says the Law, prophets and Psalms He means the whole Book. Because of this I could bring up any Messianic scripture in the OT. They were not the only ones who got this lesson compare this Luke 24:47. Are there OT scriptures that speak of the Messiah atoning for our sin by His suffering? Certainly there are. One prominent example is the entire 53rd chapter of Isaiah. Here are some key verses:

5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our peace fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.

(Isaiah 53:5-6)

And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12*Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors
.
(Isaiah 53:11-12)

John the Baptist had said in the beginning that Jesus was the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. What would that mean in the language of a Jew of that time (John 1:29)? He did not say "a" (sacrificial) lamb for Israel but one sufficiently perfect to satisfy the payment capable of saving the nation as the Passover Lamb had delivered Israel in the Exodus, at least all those who had the faith to apply it.

Then there were the scriptures foretelling the establishment of a new covenant with Israel. The Hebrew word for covenant b'rit implies the shedding of blood.

20“A Redeemer will come to Zion,
And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,” declares the LORD.
21“As for Me, this is My covenant with them,” says the LORD: “My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your offspring, nor from the mouth of your offspring’s offspring,” says the LORD, “from now and forever.”
(Isaiah 59:20-21)

Jesus rehearsed this event before He went to the cross just as believers have been ever since then.

…27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; 28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
(Matt 26:27-28)


Finally, turning back to Luke 24, Jesus is quoted as telling them the shedding of is blood was for the forgiveness of sin.

46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48“You are witnesses of these things. 49“And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”

They would be witnesses of Christ's acts, his suffering, His teachings, His resurrection and ascension. They were to proclaim this message beginning at Jerusalem and then move out to all nations. The message of repentance for the forgiveness of sins was only possible because of Christ's shed blood on the cross and His resurrection.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Jesus not merely a Rabbi reinforcing the principles of the Old Covenant. People in that time saw that. When the officers of the Pharisees who had been to hear Jesus returned, and we asked "Why did you not seize Him" they answered Never man spake like this man. 47 Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived? 48 Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him? (John 7:46-48). Jesus spoke truths never before heard (Matthew 13:35)

Many matters that were considered major in the Mosaic covenant Jesus scarcely addressed at all or did so in a way that re-directed them to the motive, essence and righteous intent of the law rather than to the letter. From an incident that involving ritual hand washing Jesus, redirected them from that tradition to the moral obligation they had towards their parents which they had found a way to circumvent. Then He says something which taken at face value contradicted the entire practice of eating kosher, a major part of Judaism (Mark 7:14-16)

The origin of the Sabbath pre-dated Moses but Moses is the one who wrote it down and made it a law punishable by death. The Pharisees had established numerous laws designed to keep people from doing any conceivable kind of "work." It seems that under the Old Covenant keeping Sabbath was a service a man rendered God. In fact the first Sabbath breaker was killed for nothing more than gathering sticks (Numbers 15:32-36) Jesus turned it around, citing occasions where men did break Sabbath saying "man was not made for the Sabbath the Sabbath was made for man" (Mark 2:23-26)

It was okay to rescue an animal, prepare something to eat for the hungry or to heal the sick on the Sabbath if a person were hungry. Mercy and love trumped over legal ritual. The era of Moses was passing away. Now there was a new sheriff in town or as Jesus put it “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.” (Mark 2:28)

These are but a few of many examples. Every time Jesus said, "you have heard it said...but I say.." He is referencing a practice based upon Old Covenant statutes. He answers by directing them back to the root causes and remedies. Often what Jesus said was deeper and more demanding than the law of Moses. For instance, not only were they not to commit murder and adultery they were not to have an attitude of hate or to think lustful thoughts. Marriage to Jesus was not just a contractual arrangement but a spiritual act, that was not automatically dissolved by divorce. People were expected not only to love their friends or even fellow Jews but even enemies. That love transcended even the boundary between them and the hated Samaritans. If the hated Roman occupier compelled them to carry their gear one mile, then they were to carry it two. This was not Judaism.

The moral commands concern God's will for humanity. Jesus Himself perfectly fulfilled it (Matt 5:17) and later became our living template. Jesus and the Apostles after him said God's laws are fulfilled in the one law of love. However, we cannot become like Him unless and until the Spirit moves within and enables us (Romans 8:3-4, Hebrews 8:10, Ezekiel 36:27, 36, 2 Corinthians 3:2-4),

Jesus did not come to patch up the Old Wineskin of the Mosaic Covenant but to make a New Covenant and then (after the Resurrection) fill it with His own Spirit. Jesus did not speak as the old rabbis. He spoke with authority words. "My words," He said, "Are spirit and life." The fulfillment of the promise would come later, after His resurrection when the "water" of the Holy Spirit would fall upon them (John7:37, Isaiah 44:3).
Jesus corrected the Pharisees and others in their twisting of and adding to the law. He told people to obey the letter.

Luke 24:44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalmsmust be fulfilled.”
45Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,


Jesus did not merely allude to the fact that He had fulfilled the scriptures He opened their minds so they could understand it spiritually. When Jesus says the Law, prophets and Psalms He means the whole Book. Because of this I could bring up any Messianic scripture in the OT. They were not the only ones who got this lesson compare this Luke 24:47. Are there OT scriptures that speak of the Messiah atoning for our sin by His suffering? Certainly there are. One prominent example is the entire 53rd chapter of Isaiah. Here are some key verses:

5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our peace fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.

(Isaiah 53:5-6)

And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12*Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors
.
(Isaiah 53:11-12)

John the Baptist had said in the beginning that Jesus was the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. What would that mean in the language of a Jew of that time (John 1:29)? He did not say "a" (sacrificial) lamb for Israel but one sufficiently perfect to satisfy the payment capable of saving the nation as the Passover Lamb had delivered Israel in the Exodus, at least all those who had the faith to apply it.

Then there were the scriptures foretelling the establishment of a new covenant with Israel. The Hebrew word for covenant b'rit implies the shedding of blood.

20“A Redeemer will come to Zion,
And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,” declares the LORD.
21“As for Me, this is My covenant with them,” says the LORD: “My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your offspring, nor from the mouth of your offspring’s offspring,” says the LORD, “from now and forever.”
(Isaiah 59:20-21)

Jesus rehearsed this event before He went to the cross just as believers have been ever since then.

…27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; 28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
(Matt 26:27-28)


Finally, turning back to Luke 24, Jesus is quoted as telling them the shedding of is blood was for the forgiveness of sin.

46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48“You are witnesses of these things. 49“And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”

They would be witnesses of Christ's acts, his suffering, His teachings, His resurrection and ascension. They were to proclaim this message beginning at Jerusalem and then move out to all nations. The message of repentance for the forgiveness of sins was only possible because of Christ's shed blood on the cross and His resurrection.
And did they understand Him?

There already is a thread dealing with Open Theism. I think it would divide my attention too much to deal with it here but, just for the record I am not a Calvinist.
I was explaining the point behind the post to which you had replied.
 

Shasta

Well-known member
Jesus corrected the Pharisees and others in their twisting of and adding to the law. He told people to obey the letter.


And did they understand Him?


I was explaining the point behind the post to which you had replied.

Jesus did rebuke them for adding traditions but as I have shown here the emphasis of His teaching was on the moral law of the heart rather than on the letter of the law. No Rabbi taught people that they should extend charity to their neighbor AND that their "neighbor" meant any fellow-human in need or that a Samaritan of mixed race and confused religious opinions could exhibit more of the character of God rather than a Jew. Judaism did not teach people to love their enemies. Saying that "what goes into a person does not defile him" was not true in the Mosaic law inasmuch as to eat anything unclean was disobedience to the Law. Disobedience does defile a person. This idea while seemingly innocuous enough undermined the basis of the kosher laws. As Lord of the Sabbath he could say what was consistent with the intent of that law or not. Jesus, contrary to the law touched lepers and laid hands on the dead when He might as easily spoken the word. Moses allowed divorce. Jesus said it really was not acceptable except for adultery. As King, however, Jesus could commute the sentence of the woman caught in adultery. So while Jesus did not attempt to dismantle the Mosaic system outright His teaching was not at all aimed to commanding people to be more rigorous about keeping the letter of the law. Jesus dealt with the moral issues of the thoughts and intentions of heart just as the Holy Spirit later would when He would "write the law on the heart" Paul speaks about THIS way of fulfilling the Gods will in this manner Romans 8:4. As yet no one was born of the Spirit but Jesus was and He spoke as one who was guided and ruled by the indwelling Spirit so a lot of what He said would be real to them only later. Still why why spend His earthly ministry going over the letter of the Law again when He knew that within a short time the cross would end the Mosaic covenant. Then it would be superseded by an entirely new one.

As I have said, the Bible says that after His resurrection when Jesus walked both groups of disciples through ALL the scriptures showing in them EVERYTHING that had been written about Him. He also opened their understanding to see the scriptures:

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48And ye are witnesses of these things.
(Luke 24:44-47)
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Jesus did rebuke them for adding traditions but as I have shown here the emphasis of His teaching was on the moral law of the heart rather than on the letter of the law.

No such thing exists. In fact, the opposite is true. The Holy Spirit chooses his words very carefully. They mean exactly what they say.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
way2go:
Israel was cast away when Saul was chosen
Rom 11:15 Act 9:6


I do not see how you can make such arbitrary demarcation
based on the date of Paul's conversion. Gentiles were born again before then and Jews continued to be afterward. It is more logical to say that God began to dispense with the Old Covenant as soon as Jesus began the New. After all, the outpouring of the Spirit was a promise of the New Covenant. Since THE gospel had not been preached everywhere I think it's fair to say many Old Covenant people were in transition .



what verse do you have for when Israel was cast away ?
 
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