New experience for a muslim

Mulla Sadra

Mulla Sadra

Member
lifeisgood said:
Allah worships, praises and glorifies like his creatures do since he prays like them! In fact, Allah even recites chapters from the Quran like Muslims do in their prayers!
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I didn't find in any book, what says Allah worships, exalted is he from that.

Praises : is "compliments" in the Arabic books, looks like you just have the favor to change its translation to "praise", to make it vague.
The word used in arabic is "Thana'" which is used to approve an achievement and commend a person, in Arabic.
And is NEVER used from a human to a God, because God is not "commended" by anyone, he commends people.
So, when the verb in Arabic ONLY mean this, it can be translated to English as "praise" "commend" "approve their asking to say a favorable judgement about the prophet to angels".
You can go back to Dictionary.com, education.yahoo.com, Collins Dictionary , Vocabulary.com (which shows explicitly that the verb is not only for worshiping purposes, and can be used to dogs to wig their tails), Macmillan Dictionary, The Free Dictionary .....etc
Tafsir Ibnu-Katheer got the arabic word "Thana'" (The Bukhari Hadeeth you translated specifically).
[which I translated as (praise) already in the last posts, and I didn't, or any muslim, mean the second meaning, but actually the same meaning you do when you massage your dog's head - if you have a dog -, and this act is not allowed from worshipers to the worshiped, as sane specify, because God commend humans, but humans are in no position to commend God.]

Which makes me wonder, do Christians commend YHWH ?! or do the show favorable evaluation of Christ ?! and go like "The cross needs more Gold, I will give it 9/10" ? [maybe you are not bright enough to catch that, the "commend" is the alternate of "criticize", as muslims, God commend and criticize humans, because his is in the position to, but as I see, Your [Theory Of] God can be criticized as much as it can be "praised as in commended"]

This is something new I happily know of now.

So, Christian's Biblical GOD "YHWH" , needs his worshipers to tell him "nice God" and commend him as such.

I am obliged to ask you, does God need your commending ? does your [theory of] God need your "worthiness evaluation" of him ? (meaning of commend), does your [theory of] God need you to say "such a brave God :) ", this is a [theory of] God I can't worship, if I am able to evaluate him and give him "nice" "cute" "bad" "good", then I am better to be worshiped as [theory of] God than that theory.

But it is a theory full of trinity lies anyways, a theory that God is exalted of.

(I linked many dictionary links, because I am seriously scared of you not knowing that the word "praise" got two meanings, didn't they teach you that in your Sunday school ?)
 
B

bybee

New member
Mulla Sadra said:
I didn't find in any book, what says Allah worships, exalted is he from that.

Praises : is "compliments" in the Arabic books, looks like you just have the favor to change its translation to "praise", to make it vague.
The word used in arabic is "Thana'" which is used to approve an achievement and commend a person, in Arabic.
And is NEVER used from a human to a God, because God is not "commended" by anyone, he commends people.
So, when the verb in Arabic ONLY mean this, it can be translated to English as "praise" "commend" "approve their asking to say a favorable judgement about the prophet to angels".
You can go back to Dictionary.com, education.yahoo.com, Collins Dictionary , Vocabulary.com (which shows explicitly that the verb is not only for worshiping purposes, and can be used to dogs to wig their tails), Macmillan Dictionary, The Free Dictionary .....etc
Tafsir Ibnu-Katheer got the arabic word "Thana'" (The Bukhari Hadeeth you translated specifically).
[which I translated as (praise) already in the last posts, and I didn't, or any muslim, mean the second meaning, but actually the same meaning you do when you massage your dog's head - if you have a dog -, and this act is not allowed from worshipers to the worshiped, as sane specify, because God commend humans, but humans are in no position to commend God.]

Which makes me wonder, do Christians commend YHWH ?! or do the show favorable evaluation of Christ ?! and go like "The cross needs more God, I will give it 9/10" ?

This is something new I happily know of now.

So, Christian's Biblical GOD "YHWH" , needs his worshipers to tell him "nice God" and commend him as such.

I am obliged to ask you, does God need your commending ? does your [theory of] God need your "worthiness evaluation" of him ? (meaning of commend), does your [theory of] God need you to say "such a brave God :) ", this is a [theory of] God I can't worship, if I am able to evaluate him and give him "nice" "cute" "bad" "good", then I am better to be worshiped as [theory of] God than that theory.

But it is a theory full of trinity lies anyways, a theory that God is exalted of.

(I linked many dictionary links, because I am seriously scared of you not knowing that the word "praise" got two meanings, didn't they teach you that in your Sunday school ?)
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You are wasting your time here. God is exalted above all forever.
There is no comparison between Islam and Christianity.
 
Mulla Sadra

Mulla Sadra

Member
bybee said:
You are wasting your time here. God is exalted above all forever.
There is no comparison between Islam and Christianity.
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Imam Hussein (AS) said :
Among the signs of ignorance is arguing with irrational people.
(I hope this doesn't apply to what is now between me and Lifeisgood, from both axis of the preachment)

But still I am waiting where is he going with me ? maybe he REALLY believes these fallacies and need someone to shock him off them.

And before he bring another page that muslims say the word "prayer" in each section I invested in elaborating.
And prayer is only for God.

I tell him the word "Salat" صلاة comes from the root صلة (translate.google.com), which means "connection" or "link", صلاة is translated directly to "prayer" as it's the famous meaning.

One of the great linguistic features of Quran is to use the root of the adjective, not just for prayers, but for connecting with your relatives, compliments of God upon righteous and many other way to "link" or "connect".

Which makes the idea of worshiping Allah in Islam a two-sided relation between Lovers and the loved, and the loved loving his lovers. (I'm sure in Christianity, God loves his worshipers and creatures ?).

So, please Lifeisgood, if you tell me it is a "prayer and all prayers are to God", I am sorry to tell you that the preachment of Imam Hussein, would apply to this conversation, because I elaborated more than enough, and those who read can judge, you can ask something else directly, or just conclude this subject and ask something later. (or not any, it is your freedom).

Because I think I can't talk more about صلاة, as it is clear for any sane who wants to read.

At last, I am sorry to use the verb demand, I didn't know of its "forceful" side of meaning, I only meant my (request) as the other side of conversation. May you accept my apologies.

And Praise be to the light of earth and heavens.
 
lifeisgood

lifeisgood

New member
Mulla Sadra said:
But it is a theory full of trinity lies anyways, a theory that God is exalted of.
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I figured that you would end with making a stab at the Trinity. You are very well indoctrinated. At my age, nothing shocks me anymore because there is nothing new under the sun.

You cannot deny, from your writings, that Allah prays. So, the only thing you have is to say that the theory of the trinity is all lies anyways.

Jehovah says of Himself:
Isaiah 44:6 — Thus saith the LORD [YHWH] the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts [YHWH tsevaoth]; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 48:12 — Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I [am] he; I [am] the first, I also [am] the last.

God the Father says of Himself that He is the first and the last.

Jesus Christ says of Himself:
Mark 14:61-62 — But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Jesus says of Himself:
- I am
- Ye shall see the Son of man
- Sitting on the right hand of power
- Coming in the clouds of heaven

Jesus Christ directs the high priest to their own writings:
Daniel 7:13-14 — I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

And

Psalm 110:1 — The LORD [YHWH {Strong’s #3068}] said unto my Lord [sovereign, i.e., controller (human or divine) {Strong’s #113}], Sit thou at my right hand, Until I [YHWH] make thine [Lord] enemies thy footstool. [Jesus in Mark 14:61-62 is referring that he is the co-occupant of the throne.]

However, they chose to deny what He was saying and was crucified for it.

The same thing would happen in our modern times if Jesus Christ were to come as the suffering servant as He did at His first advent. Ah, but when He comes the second time, He will not come as the suffering servant but as KING of Kings and LORD of Lords.

And yes, all of this has to do with prayer. Allah prays. And it has nothing to do with "compliments" or when you pray to Allah and prostrate yourself to Allah you are not "worshiping" Allah? You are just "complimenting" Him?

When I pray to my God, I am not just complimenting Him, I am unashamedly WORSHIPING Him and thanking Him for making a way for me to get to Him for eternity --- Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary, not Cavalry.
 
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lifeisgood

lifeisgood

New member
Mulla Sadra said:
At last, I am sorry to use the verb demand, I didn't know of its "forceful" side of meaning, I only meant my (request) as the other side of conversation. May you accept my apologies.
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Apology accepted, but, in this case, no apologies needed because as you explained you did not know.
 
Mulla Sadra

Mulla Sadra

Member

Prayer of Humans to Allah :
(The next verses show the time of the five prayers, the five prayers - and such prayers, are the prayers of Humans to God in Islam, with other types surely) :

Establish prayer at the decline of the sun [from its meridian] until the darkness of the night and [also] the Qur'an of dawn. Indeed, the recitation of dawn is ever witnessed. And from [part of] the night, pray with it as additional [worship] for you; it is expected that your Lord will resurrect you to a praised station. [17:78/79]

Prayers from Humans to Humans :
(The sentence Allah's Blessings in Arabic is "prayers")
Take, [O, Muhammad], from their wealth a charity by which you purify them and cause them increase, and invoke "prayers" [ Allah 's blessings] upon them. Indeed, your invocations are reassurance for them. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing. [9:103]

Prayers from Angels to Humans :
As in the verse you wrote in the post.

Prayers from God to Humans :
[This verse is not about Muhammad as you can see, but about believers in general]
It is He and his Angels who confer blessing upon you [believers], and His angels that He may bring you out from darknesses into the light. And ever is He, to the believers, Merciful. [33:43]
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The first : Prayer of Humans to Allah :
Is the, as Ibn Katheer, as you say, says : the acts of bowing and prostration
and it is part of the Sharia, and an obligation on faithful for five times a day, in the average of 17 "bow" in one day. (it is better to pray the other extra prayers called "Nawafil" which makes the sum 51 bow a day).
The verb usually connected to this prayer is "Aqim" which means "build", because this prayer is the pillar of Islam.

The second : Prayers from humans to humans :
is a "Dua'a" for them.
Dua'a is a (strategy) to talk to God, just like a calling.
Salafist Sunna say : the righteous human can't call instead of another human only if alive
Shia and Most of Sunna say : A muslim is able to make a human as a "Waseela", a medium, to Allah, Dead or alive.

The Third : Prayers from Angels to Humans :
There are two interpretations (Quran didn't detail the case, and Hadeeth wasn't clear about it too).
The first : Just like if a human pray to a human, is a "Dua'a"
The second : they work as "asking God" to pray on that person

The Fourth, Our Case : As Quran say in the verse I quoted earlier, is a (bringing out from darkness to light) and it means glorifying of a person and also a mercy from God on that person, and asking from us to Allah to give praise [Edit : Praise as in commend/compliment not worshiping act] for the one who is prayed upon, in heavens.
Simply, it is a "Bless".
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------------

I think this is your conclusion, because I am not saying anything more about the subject but this comment.

lifeisgood said:
And yes, all of this has to do with prayer. Allah prays. And it has nothing to do with "compliments" or when you pray to Allah and prostrate yourself to Allah you are not "worshiping" Allah? You are just "complimenting" Him?
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I am quite straight :

God is exalted upon any kind of humane association, separate from any kind of similarity, Worshiping is an act of those with deficiencies (Humans, prophets and Messenger, including Jesus and Muhammad), and God is exalted upon that.

And this is the theology of all Muslims. Not one says what you say.

I made enough details of what's the meaning of صلاة in Arabic (there's no analogous word to it in English, but "linkage", and that's not used to express prayer/blessing/compliment/commending/calling(Dua'a), in English, which are all meanings for the same word in Arabic),

anyone can go up and read what I said, and see if your last comment got anything with what I am saying (as quoted).

I say, this is what I say and this is what you say, and that's it, fair enough I think.

I cease this subject from my side, and I hope this is was your conclusion comment, as I requested friendly non-forcefully earlier.

You are free to conclude alone more on this topic, or ask anything else.

Note : "Pray" صلاة in Arabic = Worshiping if meant to God = Commending and Bless if meant to humans from God = Dua'a between humans and humans, and Angels.
And the word was used for all of the meanings in Quran, and such in my comments. So may those who read notice, that "pray" as in صلاة is discussed in its Arabic meaning as was asked in the question

In Arabic, the phrase translated as PBUH is Salla Allâhȗ `Alayhî wa sallam, which means, "the prayers and salutation of Allah be upon him [Mohammed]," so I am told.
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And then, not the English P+R+A+Y was discussed, as someone is trying to deceive.

Fair I think is to take meaning of an Arabic word from Arabs, not the translation that might mislead in English.

[You wouldn't love me use the Greek verb in Mary Magdalene story after Crucifixion, as something else than "cling" but "touch/anoint", would you ? So please respect others languages meanings and take its people word on it.]

I say this lastly, if my friend Lifeisgood find an English word that have multiple meanings as [Linkage/Worshiping/Blessing/commending/complimenting/Dua'a/calling], I will surely invest in using that word instead of "pray" when translating. and I CONCLUDE this subject from my side with this remark/note.
 
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Mulla Sadra

Mulla Sadra

Member
lifeisgood said:
The same thing would happen in our modern times if Jesus Christ were to come as the suffering servant as He did at His first advent. Ah, but when He comes the second time, He will not come as the suffering servant but as KING of Kings and LORD of Lords.
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See ! Something we share about Jesus.
Albeit, Lord over earth lords, and king over earth kings, not a God.

God exalted be.

lifeisgood said:
Apology accepted, but, in this case, no apologies needed because as you explained you did not know.
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Then it is the an apology of the probability that you might've thought for a moment, I meant I am superior, may Allah forgive me if I ever think so.
 
Krsto

Krsto

Well-known member
Mulla Sadra said:
See ! Something we share about Jesus.
Albeit, Lord over earth lords, and king over earth kings, not a God.
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I wasn't aware Muslims even believe this much about Jesus.

Do you believe he was exalted to sit at the right hand of God?
 
Mulla Sadra

Mulla Sadra

Member
Krsto said:
I wasn't aware Muslims even believe this much about Jesus.

Do you believe he was exalted to sit at the right hand of God?
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And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over him are in doubt about him. They have no knowledge of him except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise. And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he [person from People of Scripture] will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection Jesus will be a witness [in favor of them or against them].

4:158/159

The Italic "his" got two interpretations :

1- He in the verse is Jesus, and means Christians and Jews of Last times, that is in Hadeeth, when in last times Jesus comes back.
So, when Jesus come back Christians and Jews would follow him, and with Imam Mahdi kills "false-christ" [the christ who says he is God and is allied with Jews who control Jerusalem], and then a great prayer would be lifted in Jerusalem where Imam Mahdi, Muslims, Jesus, and Christians would, pray, and Imam Mahdi asks Jesus to be the leader of prayers and Jesus tells him that each with his leader.

2- He in the verse is the man from People of Scriptures, which means that every Christian and Jew still stay on this belief (that Jesus was killed) and never believe in real Jesus until they die and meet Jesus, some say it means Jesus would witness against them, and some say he will be a median to forgive them.
 
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Krsto

Krsto

Well-known member
Mulla Sadra said:
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over him are in doubt about him. They have no knowledge of him except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise. And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he [person from People of Scripture] will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection Jesus will be a witness [in favor of them or against them].

4:158/159

The Italic "his" got two interpretations :

1- He in the verse is Jesus, and means Christians and Jews of Last times, that is in Hadeeth, when in last times Jesus comes back.
So, when Jesus come back Christians and Jews would follow him, after Imam Mahdi kills "false-christ" his non-righteous followers, and then a great prayer would be lifted in Jerusalem where Imam Mahdi is Imam of prayers that Jesus, Christians and Jews would be in.

2- He is the man from People of Scriptures, which means that every Christian and Jew still stay on this belief (that Jesus was killed) and never believe in real Jesus until they die and meet Jesus, some say it means Jesus would witness against them, and some say he will be a median to forgive them.
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So you believe "Imam Mahdi kills "false-christ" in Jerusalem"? Who might that be?
 
Mulla Sadra

Mulla Sadra

Member
Krsto said:
So you believe "Imam Mahdi kills "false-christ" in Jerusalem"? Who might that be?
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See Edit.

I don't believe in these prophecies, most of them are lies as much as I want to know, and I am afraid that there are some of the brightest clerics in Iran these days who think are the manifestation of a Hadeeth about this.

All I have to believe that there will be a great force of rightness, who are Imam Mahdi and Jesus, against a greater force of evilness, who will fight on land of Jerusalem.

That's my belief, and I don't like to go after, not firmly known Hadeeths, to know who they are specifically.

I already showed my position as me from prophecies, earlier in this post with TL.
 
Mulla Sadra

Mulla Sadra

Member
Some of these prophecies Hadeeths maintain that Imam Mahdi would never be victorious on (False-Christ) - I think you call him anti-christ -, until Jesus comes back from heavens in Syria and help him to take down Jerusalem. (This will be in the end of the life of Imam Mahdi).
 
Mulla Sadra

Mulla Sadra

Member
chrysostom said:
I believe denying the Father and the Son
is
denying Jesus is God
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Well, if it was so, it would've said "denying Son of God".
But, it mentioned the two parts, means negating the whole God. (Or something like that, it is your bible).

And, the Anti-Christ in Islam, as these "prophecy Hadeeths" speak out, is an Atheist who is going to be generally followed by the Jews who control Jerusalem at the end of times.

But at the beginning, he would seduce many Muslims, Christians, Jews and any human to wrong path, but in the Great Battle at the end after Jesus comes from Heavens, Muslims, Christians and Jews who are real believers saying Jerusalem is not their right (something like Neturei Karta), would be on a side against Anti-Christ and his Atheist/Jews allies.

Some people in Iran want to depict, that Anti-Christ is an instrument that would be made by Atheist Zionists [instead of "Atheist/Jews allies", it is really "Jews who are atheist allies"], but as I said, they are going too specific in prophecies not meant to be specified.

Our gain is : Christians wouldn't be on the side of Anti-Christ but with Jesus, who would be the sign to make the Army of Righteous more than those evil, and is the sign of the victory of God against those who say he ain't God in Jerusalem.
 
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