ECT MADist thought for the day

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Lighthouse

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So you believe this city is descending to planet earth?
And there'll be no seas, no sun, no moon, no night time, no temple etc?
Yes I do.

What will people be doing with themselves for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever...........................................?
Whatever they want.
 

Bright Raven

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From the Arc of Titus which still stands in Rome today:

800px-Arch_of_Titus_Menorah.png

Which is what part of the revelation?
 

Jacob

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It means that the New Covenant had been made by Jesus in the first century.

The writer of Hebrews quotes Jeremiah to show that the prophecy had been fulfilled.

The only time New Testament writers quote Old Testament scripture is to show that the scripture (prophecy) had been fulfilled.
Is there a time where a New Testament writer shows a scripture truth relates to what is going on, but not in fact to a prophetic fulfillment?
 

Zeke

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A day is like a thousand years to God, and a thousand years like a day.

However, Revelation was written to God's servants so that they (not God) would know "what must soon take place"

(Rev 1:1) The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

In the Day of the Lord, or do you think John meant sunday? Why don't you take your theory all the way and make 70AD all spiritual as well, why just some events when you could make them all invisible?

And once again Luke 21:12-24 shows your timeline is in error, not because bullinger or any other evil dispensationalist said so, its what the chapter shows to be true in connection to that judgment on Jerusalem, and why that small time period couldn't be about the end time, with all the signs that Luke said was after 12-24, which involves plural nations and kingdoms, famines, earthquakes, and lots of other stuff like, literal signs in the heavens that you can't pretend that Jesus was telling them it would be all invisible, no more than the judgement he foretold on the city and temple was.
 

tetelestai

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Which is what part of the revelation?

All of it.

How about we try something a little easier?

Daniel prophesied what was to happen to the Jews for 490 years. When he was done God told Daniel to seal the scroll

(Dan 12:4) But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

When John gave his prophecies in Revelation, God told John NOT to seal his scroll:

(Rev 22:10) Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near.

So, Daniel's prophecy was for the next 490 years, and God told him to seal his scroll until "the time of the end"

Then, God tells John to NOT seal his prophecies because "the time is near"

YET, you want me to believe that "the time is near" really means 1,900+ years, even though 490 years was sealed because "the time of the end" was far off?

How does that make any sense?
 

Bright Raven

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All of it.

How about we try something a little easier?

Daniel prophesied what was to happen to the Jews for 490 years. When he was done God told Daniel to seal the scroll

(Dan 12:4) But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

When John gave his prophecies in Revelation, God told John NOT to seal his scroll:

(Rev 22:10) Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near.

So, Daniel's prophecy was for the next 490 years, and God told him to seal his scroll until "the time of the end"

Then, God tells John to NOT seal his prophecies because "the time is near"

YET, you want me to believe that "the time is near" really means 1,900+ years, even though 490 years was sealed because "the time of the end" was far off?

How does that make any sense?

70 weeks of years, sounds familiar See if I remember, Messiah cutoff at the 69th week. Hmmmmm. Still leaves seven years, great Tribulation. Don't think we've seen it yet. If we have, what was it?
 

tetelestai

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In the Day of the Lord, or do you think John meant sunday?

The "Day of the Lord" refers to what happened in 70AD

The phrase "Day of the Lord" is used over 20 times in the OT. It was used to describe judgment on Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, and Edom. In each case, an army invaded the aforementioned nations as the tool of God's wrath.


Why don't you take your theory all the way and make 70AD all spiritual as well, why just some events when you could make them all invisible?

How is every stone of the temple torn down, and not one left standing invisible?


And once again Luke 21:12-24 shows your timeline is in error, not because bullinger or any other evil dispensationalist said so, its what the chapter shows to be true in connection to that judgment on Jerusalem, and why that small time period couldn't be about the end time, with all the signs that Luke said was after 12-24, which involves plural nations and kingdoms, famines, earthquakes, and lots of other stuff like, literal signs in the heavens that you can't pretend that Jesus was telling them it would be all invisible, no more than the judgement he foretold on the city and temple was.

Everything in Luke 21 happened in 70AD just like Jesus said it would.

(Luke 21:32) “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

How much clearer does Jesus need to be?

He said that "This Generation" would not pass away until all these things happened.

They all happened.
 

tetelestai

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70 weeks of years, sounds familiar See if I remember, Messiah cutoff at the 69th week. Hmmmmm. Still leaves seven years, great Tribulation. Don't think we've seen it yet. If we have, what was it?

Their are dozens of theories as to when the 70 weeks ended or will end.

I believe the 70 weeks ended in 70AD. the 3.5 years from 66Ad to 70Ad was a great tribulation in which more than 1.2 million Jews were killed.

From secular history we know that women boiled their children and ate them when the Romans had the city surrounded and under siege. The Romans used the bodies of Jews as street lamps each night. They would hang a body on a pole and light it so the body burned all night.
 

Bright Raven

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Their are dozens of theories as to when the 70 weeks ended or will end.

I believe the 70 weeks ended in 70AD. the 3.5 years from 66Ad to 70Ad was a great tribulation in which more than 1.2 million Jews were killed.

From secular history we know that women boiled their children and ate them when the Romans had the city surrounded and under siege. The Romans used the bodies of Jews as street lamps each night. They would hang a body on a pole and light it so the body burned all night.

I understand your position but I also see that we will never be in agreement. I agree to disagree. Good Night :nightall:
 

andyc

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Actually the MADists claim that there will be a temple with animal sacrifices with no seas, no sun, no moon, no night time etc.

I guess these animals that kingdom slaves will be killing will have some kind of super natural powers since they won't have water to drink and since they won't be able to sleep.

Ya

There'll be no work, no food, no marriage, no families. They'll just float around with no purpose in a huge city appearing and disappearing whenever they liked. Anyone with some common sense ought to understand that this is all natural imagery describing a heavenly environment/reward/covenant.

Galatians 4:26 the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

The Jerusalem above becomes the Jerusalem below, and turns into bondage. Sarah becomes Hagar :dizzy:
 

Lazy afternoon

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Ya

There'll be no work, no food, no marriage, no families. They'll just float around with no purpose in a huge city appearing and disappearing whenever they liked. Anyone with some common sense ought to understand that this is all natural imagery describing a heavenly environment/reward/covenant.

Galatians 4:26 the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

The Jerusalem above becomes the Jerusalem below, and turns into bondage. Sarah becomes Hagar :dizzy:


Ye gads, another preterist.

Try these---


Isa 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
Isa 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
Isa 60:4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.
Isa 60:5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
Isa 60:6 The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD.
Isa 60:7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.
Isa 60:8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?
Isa 60:9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
Isa 60:10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.
Isa 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
Isa 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.
Isa 60:13 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.
Isa 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
Isa 60:15 Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.

LA.
 

andyc

New member
Ye gads, another preterist.

Try these---


Isa 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
Isa 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
Isa 60:4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.
Isa 60:5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
Isa 60:6 The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD.
Isa 60:7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.
Isa 60:8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?
Isa 60:9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
Isa 60:10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.
Isa 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
Isa 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.
Isa 60:13 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.
Isa 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
Isa 60:15 Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.

LA.

This passage does not describe the new Jerusalem.
And btw I'm not a preterist.
 

andyc

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Ok,

What do you believe.

Why does that passage not describe the New Jerusalem.

LA.

Tet and I both teach that the kingdom of God/heaven is the spiritual realm, and that this is the place where God dwells with the angels. And it is the reward of the saints. We are heirs of God, joint heirs with Christ as children of God.
This was never taught anywhere in the old testament because the old covenant was made up of laws directed towards the natural man. Old covenant saints had to look beyond the law by faith to believe that God had some other plan to accept us into his presence. This is what the bible means when it says that the OT saints saw the new covenant blessings from afar.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Where Tet and I disagree (although I'm not dogmatic about it) is that I believe there is a literal anti christ still to come as per 2Thess 2:3-4, Mat 24:15. And much of what is explained in revelation is still future, also that there will probably be a national revival in Israel prior to Christ's return.

The passage you quoted is dealing with the gospel age on this earth which is now. Now is the time of great darkness where we shine the light of Christ.
 

tetelestai

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Tet and I both teach that the kingdom of God/heaven is the spiritual realm, and that this is the place where God dwells with the angels. And it is the reward of the saints. We are heirs of God, joint heirs with Christ as children of God.
This was never taught anywhere in the old testament because the old covenant was made up of laws directed towards the natural man. Old covenant saints had to look beyond the law by faith to believe that God had some other plan to accept us into his presence. This is what the bible means when it says that the OT saints saw the new covenant blessings from afar.

:up:

Where Tet and I disagree (although I'm not dogmatic about it) is that I believe there is a literal anti christ still to come as per 2Thess 2:3-4, Mat 24:15. And much of what is explained in revelation is still future, also that there will probably be a national revival in Israel prior to Christ's return.

I don't believe the Bible says there will be one "antichrist". I believe that anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ is "antichrist", therefore there have been thousands of "antichrists".

I believe there was a man that was the "beast" in the first century who was alive in 70AD whose name, when calculated, was 666.

I also believe that the 1,000 year reign is right now, and that it started in 70AD.

The Bible tells us what will happen at the end of the 1,000 year reign

(Rev 20:7-10) 7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

As we see above, this could describe what dispensationalists and futurists claim happens during their "7 year trib" period. They claim the above happens at the end of the exactly 1,000 year reign. That makes no sense. They have Christ sitting on a throne in Jerusalem ruling the blissful earth, but somehow millions of people in the world gather together under satan to attack Jerusalem.

The above passage in Revelation could easily describe what is beginning to happen in the world today in regards to Israel and the Middle East.
 

andyc

New member
:up:



I don't believe the Bible says there will be one "antichrist". I believe that anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ is "antichrist", therefore there have been thousands of "antichrists".

I believe there was a man that was the "beast" in the first century who was alive in 70AD whose name, when calculated, was 666.

You're talking about Nero I think, but its probable that Revelation was written after his death. Still, it is remarkable that someone so anti Christ as he was could have a name and title that reveals the numbers 666 in Hebrew.
Personally I think that satan keeps trying to install the anti christ in place who will rule the world. Eventually he will succeed. Also, I believe in multiple fulfilments of prophecy. For example, the abomination spoken of in Daniel is obviously Antiochus who sacrificed a pig to zeus (I think) on the temple alter. However, Jesus and Paul speak of another fulfilment of this prophecy. How this will be fulfilled is still quite mysterious because there will never be another holy place, even if they built another temple. To rebuild the temple would be a statement of unbelief, unless it was simply a church which would signify that the Jews had accepted Jesus.

I also believe that the 1,000 year reign is right now, and that it started in 70AD.

The Bible tells us what will happen at the end of the 1,000 year reign

(Rev 20:7-10) 7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

As we see above, this could describe what dispensationalists and futurists claim happens during their "7 year trib" period. They claim the above happens at the end of the exactly 1,000 year reign. That makes no sense. They have Christ sitting on a throne in Jerusalem ruling the blissful earth, but somehow millions of people in the world gather together under satan to attack Jerusalem.

The above passage in Revelation could easily describe what is beginning to happen in the world today in regards to Israel and the Middle East.

The whole millennial reign issue is very difficult to understand. Dispensationalists are far too inconsistent with what they say about it. Personally I think there are some things that haven't been fully revealed, so they are still extremely vague.
 

Zeke

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No gentile nations where being punished, the Romans where used to carry out that judgement and thats all that happened at 70AD which Luke 21:12-24 shows to be true, the plural signs and judgments on all nations coming against Jerusalem in the end time senario couldn't have happened at 70AD, that judgement wasn't about the end of the time of the Gentiles with them being judged, which is the senario that has Christ returning to earth just like Acts 3:20-21, proclaims he will.

Preterist don't believe Colossians 1:15-20, Ephesians 1:10, no more earthly kingdom restoration allowed, this evil age is it so live with it and rejoice with God peoples all you nations because Romans 8:18-25 is a fulfilled hope in the preterist fable.

Sorry tet but your the one who is mad, and have let your hatred of mad doctrine muddle your ability to rationaly disern scripture and the world around you.
 
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