The Graphite
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Only major fans of Marvel Comics would get this, but there's a saying among Marvel fans, which refers to the original sidekick of Captain America...
"Only Bucky stays dead."
LOST - discussion about the TV series LOST. ** SPOILER ALERT **
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
Only major fans of Marvel Comics would get this, but there's a saying among Marvel fans, which refers to the original sidekick of Captain America...
"Only Bucky stays dead."
WandererInFog
New member
Only major fans of Marvel Comics would get this, but there's a saying among Marvel fans, which refers to the original sidekick of Captain America...
"Only Bucky stays dead."
Of course these days Bucky is Captain America....
The Graphite
New member
Exactly my point... what does that tell ya?
atrol:At the end of this final season there will be equal parts of...
...people who say "Oh yah, everybody knew that from show #1!" (gotta love the arrogance)
...people who say "I never really enjoyed the show." (yet they watched every season, hmmmmm)
...people who say "It was just one big love triangle."
...people who say "They ripped me off and didn't answer all the questions!" (even though the show was free to watch)
...people who say "I missed the first 5 seasons, I don't get it."
and finally
...people who say "I don't get it."
...people who say "Oh yah, everybody knew that from show #1!" (gotta love the arrogance)
...people who say "I never really enjoyed the show." (yet they watched every season, hmmmmm)
...people who say "It was just one big love triangle."
...people who say "They ripped me off and didn't answer all the questions!" (even though the show was free to watch)
...people who say "I missed the first 5 seasons, I don't get it."
and finally
...people who say "I don't get it."
The Graphite
New member
I knew you were going to say that, Adam. Although, even after following your posts here at TOL for five years, I really don't get what you're saying. Is this kind of post really worth the few dollars I'm paying TOL? They ripped me off! And clearly all of my questions about Lost have not been answered in this thread. Granted, I haven't read the first half dozen pages in this thread, but still! I just don't get it. :dunce:
zoo22
Well-known member
They've specifically said that Adam & Eve were written into the first season so that at the end, people would know that they knew the storyline from the beginning.
BTW, a few seasons ago, there was an anagram that hinted that it was Rose and Bernard's bones in the caves. There was a clip (in the film in room 23) that said ""only fools are enslaved by time and space," an anagram of which is "bones of Nadlers may lay lost deep in cave."
Which of course could have no significance at all... But if they remained in 1977 (and died), that'd make them about as old as Jack had guesstimated the bones were. They'd decided they wanted to stay on the island together. There was the whole 1977 scene where they are discovered living by themselves, "retired," having decided they don't want any part anymore of everyone blowing each other/everything up, shooting one another and whatnot (not exact words, but the sentiment). And threatened with the prospect of the island blowing up, Bernard says, "So we die. We just care about being together... That's all that matters in the end."
It just seems too easy that it'd be them. But I suppose some things will wind up simpler than many expect (at least simpler than quantum physics and string theory).
Jack has the black & white stones. Well, if he still has them, that is.
Even if it is Rose & Bernard as A&E, I still think though that as far as the various love stories go, LOST is ultimately Penny and Desmond's love story. They just seem the most connected through all of it in relation to themes of LOST: connected through time(s), through choice(s), through fate/destiny/events and people that push them to (or pull them away from) the island. To me, theirs seems the largest and most constant struggle of true love (um, no pun intended with that "constant.")
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zoo22
Well-known member
Oh, I disagree.
lain:Though I do believe it will come down to Jack, and I won't be surprised to see a weighty self-sacrifice.
I have my own [ongoing] theories... Though nothing that can be wrapped up in a sentence or ten. I wish my theories were as concise as Knight's. But I have some predictions and a number of things I'll be keeping an eye out for this season. I also do have a lot of theories on what it's not going to boil down to... Jack as Jesus is one of those "nots."
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The Graphite
New member
You may have missed where I also posted that I certainly do not believe they would actually, clearly equate Jack (or anyone) with Jesus. My point, which you clearly missed, was that all of the candidates I listed have names that relate to kings, or at least the idea of kings or national leaders. Several of them have names that literally or almost literally mean "king." And the "Shephard" who is a great physician, who makes the lame to walk, and whose number arguably refers to the most famous psalm ever, Psalm 23, which begins with a reference to the most famous "shepherd' of all time, and that individual also being considered a "king."Oh, I disagree.
Though I do believe it will come down to Jack, and I won't be surprised to see a weighty self-sacrifice.
I have my own [ongoing] theories... Though nothing that can be wrapped up in a sentence or ten. I wish my theories were as concise as Knight's. But I have some predictions and a number of things I'll be keeping an eye out for this season. I also do have a lot of theories on what it's not going to boil down to... Jack as Jesus is one of those "nots."
I already posted that I can't imagine the writers or producers actually, openly equating Jack with Jesus, directly. Rather, my theory was just that the names seem to have been engineered to allude to kings in general.
The weakest one, in retrospect, I think is "Ford." The best I could come up with was an American president who many consider to be a failure, a loser and a screw-up... which actually fits Sawyer. But, at the same time, keep in mind that when they first wrote the character and his name into the very beginning of the show, they intended to kill him off within a few episodes, therefore his name can't have been chosen to fit this theory, even if the theory itself is sound regarding the rest of the names.
And yes, I know they originally planned to kill Jack early on the show and make Kate the leader of the survivors. However, it's my understanding that they changed their mind about that before the first episode was completed. That decision was changed early enough to allow for Jack to be a part of my theory.
I read a great interview with Josh Holloway about three years ago, or so, in which he talked about how he took the role knowing they would kill the character off within four or five episodes, but he believed the character could be so much more, so he decided to go on the set every day and act his butt off, put in every bit of effort he could, and pretty soon he convinced the producers to keep the character for the long-term. He created that character, and he's been a fan favorite ever since.
The following comprises my thoughts, the thoughts of others with whom I discuss Lost issues, and some things gleaned and processed from Lostpedia regarding Episode 4, Season 6 of Lost: The Lighthouse.
Jack's scar. I've suspected since the first episode of Season 6 that Jack X is having Jake Chambers-type epiphanies and realizations. For those who are familiar with Stephen King's "Dark Tower" series of novels, recall in the third volume, The Waste Lands, how Roland goes back in time and prevents Jake Chamber's death, thereby spontaneously generating a new chronology, not unlike Lost X, resulting in a sort of "Jake X." Similar to Jack X, Jake X has inklings of things that happened, or should have happened, but he can't quite remember, causing confusion and unease as these "memories" trickle in.
This seems to be happening to Jack X. Recall that Jack, in the original narrative, had his appendix removed by Juliet on the Island. Jack X would not know this, of course, because those events did not happen to Jack X. But, just as there are vestiges of Real Locke floating around inside of Fake Locke, it appears that Jack X has some residual connections to the original Jack.
Also, in the first episode of this season, Jack X noticed a bleeding cut on his neck, just after that point in time when he and the other Losties would have crashed on the Island in the original chronology. Are the events of the parallel universes affecting each other in an unprecedented way, coinciding with the detonation of Jughead and the assassination of Jacob?
"Good for you." When Jack X's mother, Marlo, asks him if he wants a drink, he declines. Her response, "good for you," suggests that Jack X has a drinking problem, similar to the original Jack. We could surmise that his alcoholism was the reason for his divorce, and is possibly the reason why his son is afraid of him. However, I am reminded that Jack X did have a drink in Episode One of Season Six, on the flight to LA "X".
Hurley the Candidate. When Hurley is confronted by Dogen in the Temple, Hurley tells Dogen, at Jacob's prompting, that he is a candidate. Dogen is visably apoplectic. After Hurley tells him to basically get lost, Dogen says something in Japanese to Hurley. According to Lostpedia, it translates: "You're lucky that I have to protect you. Otherwise I'd have cut your head off." Clearly, Dogen is as ruthless and determined as Ben ever was, perhaps moreso.
Good guys, bad guys. I've been trying to pick up clues to determine whether Jacob is a good guy or a bad guy. Same with Fake Lock-Loophole Luigi. Jacob's deception, manipulation and influence of people are well established, although it's not clear if his motives/goals are nefarious or not. Regarding Luigi, he has lied twice so far, that we know of: Once to Sawyer about the Bloody Blond Boy, and now to Claire, regarding Aaron's whereabouts.
What Happened to Sawyer? Seeing Luigi-Locke at Claire's camp in the last segment evoked the immediate question: Where's Sawyer? Did Luigi leave him in the cave? Does the broken ladder prevent Sawyer from escaping? Did Luigi morph into his Smoke Monster form in order to leave the cave?
23 Shephard. In my previous "Lost in Thought" installment, I speculated that "23 Shephard" could actually refer to Aaron (that is, if Luigi was lying when he told Sawyer that it referred to Jack). I surmised that Aaron is "technically" a Shephard since Jack's father, Christian, is Claire's father. And Claire, being unmarried, is technically a Shephard as well (ignoring, for the moment, the implicit anti-feminist paternalist prejudice), thus making Aaron a Shephard. However, with the new revelation of David, Jack X's son in the new Lost X narrative, we now have an added possibility. Supporting that notion is the sign that was on display at David's piano recital that read, "Welcome All Candidates."
However, a couple things mitigate against this conjecture, namely, Jack's seat number on the plane (23B), and the fact that 23 degrees on the Lighthouse protractor showed Jack's childhood home in the Lighthouse's mirror (thanks for point that out, Amy).
Black & White Symbolism and the Alice Connection. In David's room, Jack see the Alice in Wonderland book on his bed. Jack reminds him that he used to read that book to him when he was younger, and makes reference to Alice's two kittens, one of which was black, and one of which was white. According to Lostpedia, Jack also read this book to baby Aaron in Season 4 when he and Kate were living together after returning to the mainland.
It is noteworthy that Jack, back in the first season of the series, chased a vision/apparition/reanimated corpse/clone/something of his father, Christian, into a cave, not unlike Alice's pursuit of the White Rabbit in Lewis Carroll's story. Recall that this cave is where Jack found the two skeletons, affectionately referred to as "Adam & Eve" by Lost fans, and in the pocket of one of the skeletons was found two stones, one black, one white. That episode was called "Through the Looking Glass," which is the title of one of Carroll's Alice stories. In that same episode, in Jack's flashback, Christian Shephard told Jack that he didn't "have what it takes."
The scene of Hurley and Miles playing tic-tac-toe (noughts-and-crosses) is, as are other games that have been played on the Island, of a "black-white" nature.
The "infection." I've been wondering about something. With Jacob dead and Luigi on the loose, Ilana and the Temple Others seem absolutely terrified about something. Either they are afraid of Fake-Locke-Luigi, or perhaps something bigger. Their fear seems to extend beyond what Smoke Monster could do; it seems like something much bigger is a threat to them. It could well be that Jacob was a force on the Island that kept Luigi from wreaking maximum havoc, and now that Jacob is gone, there is nothing restraining him from collecting ("infecting") his "recruits" and then going after the Temple.
In a bit of irony, it made me smile when Claire said something, "We have to get you cleaned up, because in the jungle one of the killers is 'infection.'"
Davidic symbolisms. Acording to Lostpedia, the music that David Shephard played for his recital is the same played by Daniel Faraday in "The Variable." Also, recalling the biblical significance of "23," "The Lord is my shephard …" (Psalm 23), it is noteworthy that David Shephard is named after the author of Psalm 23, King David, who was a shepherd as a boy. It doesn't stop there. King David, having written the biblical Psalms (i.e., songs), was also an accomplished musician and song-writer.
A Dingo Ate Your Baby. The similarities between Claire and Danielle Rousseau are numerous. Their Sheena-of-the-Jungle sense of couture, their stockpiling of dynamite, their willingness to kill without remorse or hesitation, their setting of traps and torturing of captives, and, perhaps most significantly, their obsessive pursuit of their lost children.
The time for questions is NOT over. Jacob tells Hurley and Jack that they need to stay away from the Temple because someone "bad" is soon to arrive. Whereas Ilana, supposedly loyal to Jacob, told Sun that they must get to the Temple in order to be safe. Something's amiss.
Why does Dogen seem to know so much more than Richard and Ben? Richard didn't seem to know anything about what Luigi wanted, whereas Ilana and Dogen seem pretty well informed, not only about the nature and purpose of Luigi, but what he plans to do. When Fake-Locke-Luigi mentioned to Richard about Real Locke being a "candidate," Richard draws a blank.
The following are some thoughts that developed in my dialogue with a fellow Lost aficionado (thanks Stephen):
Gentle Ben? I really do hope the formidable side of Ben's persona gets to burgeon into its full glory in some climactic manner. However, whereas, on the other hand, notwithstanding, nevertheless, Ben reminds me of a bad-guy character in the Dark Tower books, by which, apparently, the Lost writers have been influenced. The Dark Tower character was a scary and intimidating villain throughout the story, but his end was a big disappointment and he just faded out of relevance. I couldn't, for the life of me, understand why the writer would not instead let him go out in a blaze of glory. I certainly hope this is not the case with Ben.
The rules, the RULES! Widmore supposedly, according to Ben, "broke the rules" when Widmore ordered Keamy to kill Ben's adopted daughter, Alex. This act drove Ben to the point of going to the mainland JUST to get all up in Widmore's grill. So what do the rules refer to? You can't kill a candidate's offspring? So when the Bloody Blond Boy said, "You know the rules. You can't kill him," was this referring to someone's male offspring? Could this be refer to Jack's son, David? Who else among the Lost has male children? Claire and Michael. Have I forgotten any?
Stephen's observation about Alex only being Ben's adopted daughter seems significant. Consider this: Ben is typically portrayed with a a cold, stoic, unflappable demeanor. It was only with Alex, or in matters concerning her, that we saw Ben lose his cucumber cool. It seems to me that Ben was a bit self-deluded, and wilfully so. He so wanted Alex to be his real daughter, that he actually invoked "the rules" in order to further solidify his fantasy. So when Widmore had Alex killed, it shattered Ben's carefully erected illusion. Think of how much more poignant, then, was the appearance of Alex in the Black Smoke in the Temple last season.
That is all for now.
Hilston
Jack's scar. I've suspected since the first episode of Season 6 that Jack X is having Jake Chambers-type epiphanies and realizations. For those who are familiar with Stephen King's "Dark Tower" series of novels, recall in the third volume, The Waste Lands, how Roland goes back in time and prevents Jake Chamber's death, thereby spontaneously generating a new chronology, not unlike Lost X, resulting in a sort of "Jake X." Similar to Jack X, Jake X has inklings of things that happened, or should have happened, but he can't quite remember, causing confusion and unease as these "memories" trickle in.
This seems to be happening to Jack X. Recall that Jack, in the original narrative, had his appendix removed by Juliet on the Island. Jack X would not know this, of course, because those events did not happen to Jack X. But, just as there are vestiges of Real Locke floating around inside of Fake Locke, it appears that Jack X has some residual connections to the original Jack.
Also, in the first episode of this season, Jack X noticed a bleeding cut on his neck, just after that point in time when he and the other Losties would have crashed on the Island in the original chronology. Are the events of the parallel universes affecting each other in an unprecedented way, coinciding with the detonation of Jughead and the assassination of Jacob?
"Good for you." When Jack X's mother, Marlo, asks him if he wants a drink, he declines. Her response, "good for you," suggests that Jack X has a drinking problem, similar to the original Jack. We could surmise that his alcoholism was the reason for his divorce, and is possibly the reason why his son is afraid of him. However, I am reminded that Jack X did have a drink in Episode One of Season Six, on the flight to LA "X".
Hurley the Candidate. When Hurley is confronted by Dogen in the Temple, Hurley tells Dogen, at Jacob's prompting, that he is a candidate. Dogen is visably apoplectic. After Hurley tells him to basically get lost, Dogen says something in Japanese to Hurley. According to Lostpedia, it translates: "You're lucky that I have to protect you. Otherwise I'd have cut your head off." Clearly, Dogen is as ruthless and determined as Ben ever was, perhaps moreso.
Good guys, bad guys. I've been trying to pick up clues to determine whether Jacob is a good guy or a bad guy. Same with Fake Lock-Loophole Luigi. Jacob's deception, manipulation and influence of people are well established, although it's not clear if his motives/goals are nefarious or not. Regarding Luigi, he has lied twice so far, that we know of: Once to Sawyer about the Bloody Blond Boy, and now to Claire, regarding Aaron's whereabouts.
What Happened to Sawyer? Seeing Luigi-Locke at Claire's camp in the last segment evoked the immediate question: Where's Sawyer? Did Luigi leave him in the cave? Does the broken ladder prevent Sawyer from escaping? Did Luigi morph into his Smoke Monster form in order to leave the cave?
23 Shephard. In my previous "Lost in Thought" installment, I speculated that "23 Shephard" could actually refer to Aaron (that is, if Luigi was lying when he told Sawyer that it referred to Jack). I surmised that Aaron is "technically" a Shephard since Jack's father, Christian, is Claire's father. And Claire, being unmarried, is technically a Shephard as well (ignoring, for the moment, the implicit anti-feminist paternalist prejudice), thus making Aaron a Shephard. However, with the new revelation of David, Jack X's son in the new Lost X narrative, we now have an added possibility. Supporting that notion is the sign that was on display at David's piano recital that read, "Welcome All Candidates."
However, a couple things mitigate against this conjecture, namely, Jack's seat number on the plane (23B), and the fact that 23 degrees on the Lighthouse protractor showed Jack's childhood home in the Lighthouse's mirror (thanks for point that out, Amy).
Black & White Symbolism and the Alice Connection. In David's room, Jack see the Alice in Wonderland book on his bed. Jack reminds him that he used to read that book to him when he was younger, and makes reference to Alice's two kittens, one of which was black, and one of which was white. According to Lostpedia, Jack also read this book to baby Aaron in Season 4 when he and Kate were living together after returning to the mainland.
It is noteworthy that Jack, back in the first season of the series, chased a vision/apparition/reanimated corpse/clone/something of his father, Christian, into a cave, not unlike Alice's pursuit of the White Rabbit in Lewis Carroll's story. Recall that this cave is where Jack found the two skeletons, affectionately referred to as "Adam & Eve" by Lost fans, and in the pocket of one of the skeletons was found two stones, one black, one white. That episode was called "Through the Looking Glass," which is the title of one of Carroll's Alice stories. In that same episode, in Jack's flashback, Christian Shephard told Jack that he didn't "have what it takes."
The scene of Hurley and Miles playing tic-tac-toe (noughts-and-crosses) is, as are other games that have been played on the Island, of a "black-white" nature.
The "infection." I've been wondering about something. With Jacob dead and Luigi on the loose, Ilana and the Temple Others seem absolutely terrified about something. Either they are afraid of Fake-Locke-Luigi, or perhaps something bigger. Their fear seems to extend beyond what Smoke Monster could do; it seems like something much bigger is a threat to them. It could well be that Jacob was a force on the Island that kept Luigi from wreaking maximum havoc, and now that Jacob is gone, there is nothing restraining him from collecting ("infecting") his "recruits" and then going after the Temple.
In a bit of irony, it made me smile when Claire said something, "We have to get you cleaned up, because in the jungle one of the killers is 'infection.'"
Davidic symbolisms. Acording to Lostpedia, the music that David Shephard played for his recital is the same played by Daniel Faraday in "The Variable." Also, recalling the biblical significance of "23," "The Lord is my shephard …" (Psalm 23), it is noteworthy that David Shephard is named after the author of Psalm 23, King David, who was a shepherd as a boy. It doesn't stop there. King David, having written the biblical Psalms (i.e., songs), was also an accomplished musician and song-writer.
A Dingo Ate Your Baby. The similarities between Claire and Danielle Rousseau are numerous. Their Sheena-of-the-Jungle sense of couture, their stockpiling of dynamite, their willingness to kill without remorse or hesitation, their setting of traps and torturing of captives, and, perhaps most significantly, their obsessive pursuit of their lost children.
The time for questions is NOT over. Jacob tells Hurley and Jack that they need to stay away from the Temple because someone "bad" is soon to arrive. Whereas Ilana, supposedly loyal to Jacob, told Sun that they must get to the Temple in order to be safe. Something's amiss.
Why does Dogen seem to know so much more than Richard and Ben? Richard didn't seem to know anything about what Luigi wanted, whereas Ilana and Dogen seem pretty well informed, not only about the nature and purpose of Luigi, but what he plans to do. When Fake-Locke-Luigi mentioned to Richard about Real Locke being a "candidate," Richard draws a blank.
The following are some thoughts that developed in my dialogue with a fellow Lost aficionado (thanks Stephen):
Gentle Ben? I really do hope the formidable side of Ben's persona gets to burgeon into its full glory in some climactic manner. However, whereas, on the other hand, notwithstanding, nevertheless, Ben reminds me of a bad-guy character in the Dark Tower books, by which, apparently, the Lost writers have been influenced. The Dark Tower character was a scary and intimidating villain throughout the story, but his end was a big disappointment and he just faded out of relevance. I couldn't, for the life of me, understand why the writer would not instead let him go out in a blaze of glory. I certainly hope this is not the case with Ben.
The rules, the RULES! Widmore supposedly, according to Ben, "broke the rules" when Widmore ordered Keamy to kill Ben's adopted daughter, Alex. This act drove Ben to the point of going to the mainland JUST to get all up in Widmore's grill. So what do the rules refer to? You can't kill a candidate's offspring? So when the Bloody Blond Boy said, "You know the rules. You can't kill him," was this referring to someone's male offspring? Could this be refer to Jack's son, David? Who else among the Lost has male children? Claire and Michael. Have I forgotten any?
Stephen's observation about Alex only being Ben's adopted daughter seems significant. Consider this: Ben is typically portrayed with a a cold, stoic, unflappable demeanor. It was only with Alex, or in matters concerning her, that we saw Ben lose his cucumber cool. It seems to me that Ben was a bit self-deluded, and wilfully so. He so wanted Alex to be his real daughter, that he actually invoked "the rules" in order to further solidify his fantasy. So when Widmore had Alex killed, it shattered Ben's carefully erected illusion. Think of how much more poignant, then, was the appearance of Alex in the Black Smoke in the Temple last season.
That is all for now.
Hilston
The Graphite
New member
* * * MAJOR SPOILER ALERT * * *
According to Lostpedia, there was a panel yesterday where the producers agreed to answer a limited number of questions.
The answer is “yes” to the following:
- Will Richard and Ilana exchange some words soon? Will we see another painting by Bender?
- Do some of the characters’ last names have significance, particularly Jack’s?
- Is Jack married to someone we’ve met before?
- Was Jacob telling the truth when he said someone was coming to the island?
- Will we learn more about Hurley and Libby’s connection?
- Will we see Vincent and Charlie again? Will we learn if Desmond was really on the plane?
Early in the series when Locke is being dragged by the smoke monster Jack and Kate save him by dropping dynamite into the smoke monsters hole (personally I always thought that scene was a bit cheesy) but maybe there is a reason that the smoke monster would be "scared off" by dynamite? Maybe they showed us that awkward scene intentionally and maybe that's why crazy island ladies collect dynamite? :think:
But was Rousseau friends with smokie as Claire seems to be?
Both Claire and Rousseau seem to be paranoid and think everyone else might "infected" yet all indication is that they are the ones that might be "infected".
I don't know..... my head hurts :dizzy:
The Graphite
New member
It has been stated before on the show that for people to go back to the island, they need to recreate the circumstances of the last trip there in some meaningful, symbolic way.
And now we are looking at a bunch of candidates, and at least one person being "replaced" on the island. But... what if more than one person is can/should be replaced?
"It's good to see you out of those chains, Richard."
Kate arrived on the island in chains.
Dogen is skilled at healing others using herbal remedies.
Jack is a healer, but also notable is Sun, who has demonstrated specifically a knowledge of healing using herbs.
Smokey (aka the Locke-ness Monster) is an ultimate cynic who seeks to manipulate others for his own gain. Sound like anyone? Sawyer is a prime candidate for him.
Claire has clearly become the new Rousseau.
Locke already replaced Ben as leader of the others - a mysterious and esoteric leader who stands apart from those he leads.
A lot of the characters have characteristics (no pun intended) of people who were already on the island when they arrived, and some of them are already moving into position (or have even already moved into position) to replace those individuals in the island's ongoing series of dramas and tragedies.
Is this island cursed to perpetually have a healer, a paranoid jungle lady who lost her baby, a dark and cynical manipulator, a person formerly in chains who now advises the leadership of others, etc.? Is this a never-ending drama of characters, with its perpetual roles being filled with new "candidates?"
This isn't a complete or comprehensive theory; I'm just exploring ideas, here.
And now we are looking at a bunch of candidates, and at least one person being "replaced" on the island. But... what if more than one person is can/should be replaced?
"It's good to see you out of those chains, Richard."
Kate arrived on the island in chains.
Dogen is skilled at healing others using herbal remedies.
Jack is a healer, but also notable is Sun, who has demonstrated specifically a knowledge of healing using herbs.
Smokey (aka the Locke-ness Monster) is an ultimate cynic who seeks to manipulate others for his own gain. Sound like anyone? Sawyer is a prime candidate for him.
Claire has clearly become the new Rousseau.
Locke already replaced Ben as leader of the others - a mysterious and esoteric leader who stands apart from those he leads.
A lot of the characters have characteristics (no pun intended) of people who were already on the island when they arrived, and some of them are already moving into position (or have even already moved into position) to replace those individuals in the island's ongoing series of dramas and tragedies.
Is this island cursed to perpetually have a healer, a paranoid jungle lady who lost her baby, a dark and cynical manipulator, a person formerly in chains who now advises the leadership of others, etc.? Is this a never-ending drama of characters, with its perpetual roles being filled with new "candidates?"
This isn't a complete or comprehensive theory; I'm just exploring ideas, here.
Hmmmm... very interesting thoughts indeed! :up:
zoo22
Well-known member
I didn't miss that. I don't believe they would either, but I also don't believe he (or anyone) is really meant to.
I certainly may be wrong.
Some folks believe Locke represents Jesus. Or Jacob represents Jesus. Or Christian represents Jesus. I've read Hurley represents Jesus. That Aaron represents Jesus. That [female] Jin-Soo represents Jesus.
There are obviously many things about Jack that relate in various ways, to various extents, to Jesus... Shephard, 23, Father=Christian, Dr., rib wound, David, etcetc. I believe some are intended and meaningful, some not so much. But I don't buy the Jack-as-Jesus theories. Primarily, he's just too damaged. Too many personal issues he needs to come to grips with. He's a confused, angry mess half the time.
But I also don't buy any of X-as-Jesus theories, or any of the theories that boil down to religion, period (I understand you are not saying such). Many religions, to an extent (obviously many are incorporated). One, no. And nothing as powerful as having a specific Jesus character. However, as said, I see that Jack incorporates a lot of Jesus similarities. And I also think he and the Shephards are intended as a stronger representation towards Christianity than most other characters/storylines are. Particularly (I believe), Jack's own grappling with faith.
Again, I certainly may be wrong.
The writers have such a wealth to draw on for material from religions, mythologies, philosophies, sciences and history. I mean, they can go through any religion and come up with so many perfect (accurate or misleading) clues and symbols and stories that mirror and deepen and further their themes... destiny/freewill, good/evil, us/them, black/white/light/dark, lead/follow, faith, redemption ... We've been grappling with all of it since the beginning of time. Or well, since we had a real self-aware, contemplative consciousness.
I didn't miss that either. I agree that many of the names are specifically meant to represent kings. I don't believe that all of the "candidate" names are meant to.
Now you can add a possible David to your list... But also may need to find a way to incorporate king Austin?
The name-game in LOST can be very frustrating. Fun but frustrating.
I believe Sawyer/Jack Ford mostly comes from Jack Ford, who was a US "civic leader" and also a pirate.
I've read similar. He's really done an amazing job.
Yeah, I think they made that decision very quickly. I've always thought it significant that they opened on Jack's eye. But I think there was enough lead time in changes for them to wrangle it into something more significant than it may have been. Or of course, maybe it's not significant at all.
As far as Jack the character goes, I've become pretty tired of him doing things like, say, impulsively smashing all of the magic mirrors in a magic lighthouse after being led there by a magical, dead, time-traveling, invisible demi-god. Hm. Who was it way back in the first episode that gave a speech about stepping back and counting to five when fear/confusion set in?
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Poly
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I agree. There we were, sitting on the edge of our seats, possibly on the verge of getting some great answers with all those numbers and reflections and he decides to have a hissy fit and ruins it! What a stinkin' baby!!
I'm gonna go collect some dynamite! :noid:
The Graphite
New member
I didn't say that I like the fact the symbolism and the connection...
I agree Jack is messed up, has "too many issues." However, just because you don't like the symbolism or connection doesn't mean that it isn't what the writers are doing. In fact, recently, the producers stated publicly that the names of the characters DO mean something, especially Jack's. (And your comment about the wound in the side was amazingly observant; I never even thought of that!)
Face it; the writers probably aren't Christian-friendly, or at least they aren't in touch with a Christian perspective. They are very secular. So, it seems pretty clear they are using numerous layers of symbolism to tie Jack to Jesus Christ. We may not like it... but I think at this point it's pretty hard to deny. And many candidates having names meaning "king," with Jack being the "king of kings."
I certainly agree that Ford is probably the weakest part of my theory.
The Graphite
New member
Should be plenty to go around. It looked like Claire had more dynamite than you can shake a stick a... *KERPOW!* :smack:
zoo22
Well-known member
I agree. There we were, sitting on the edge of our seats, possibly on the verge of getting some great answers with all those numbers and reflections and he decides to have a hissy fit and ruins it! What a stinkin' baby!!
I'm gonna go collect some dynamite! :noid:
:chuckle:
I think in that shot of him sitting on the bluff looking out at the ocean, he must have been thinking, "Wow, that was REALLY stupid. ... And I did it with millions of people watching me."
zoo22
Well-known member
I'm going to have to think about it more. I've been so dead-set against it that maybe I need to reexamine.
It's funny, with so many LOST theories there's a really strong element at center, but some bits kind of have to be squeezed in sideways to make it full.
I think there are many different theories that'll wind up being very accurate, but in parts. I think a lot of cross-over theories will wind up as accurate.
I have some ideas. I'm hoping to have it hashed myself out mid-season. Right around when I think Ben will die.
lain: But like I said, nothing nearly as concise as Knight's Twilight Zone theory.
The Graphite
New member
Whoa... leave it to a dispensationalist to notice something like this.
The series is parenthetical to some degree. Not exactly but roughly so. We've already noticed that the episodes in this season mirror the order of the episodes in the first season. Even the focus of each episode is the same. Kate-centric episode... a Locke one... then a Jack one... and next a Sun/Jin one... So, this season is mirroring the first season. But, guess what? It goes beyond that, but nobody noticed.
What happened in the second season?
What happened in the 5th season?
The series is very roughly parenthetical!
It is becoming increasingly apparent that this island takes to the extreme the concept of "history repeats itself." People who come here are cursed to repeat the same scenarios again and again. Sometimes, people come to the island and replace other individuals, taking over their roles in these ongoing and repeating dramas. Locke replaced Ben, Claire replaced Rousseau, etc. As the adversary cynically pointed out, the same thing(s) happen every time. History repeats itself to the extreme on this island, on and on, with no end in sight.
And, no, I haven't even begun to investigate whether Season 4 mirrors Season 3. But certainly I see a lot of strong parallels between 6 & 1..... and 5 & 2. More on this later.
P.S. I just submitted this theory to Theories On Lost blog.
The series is parenthetical to some degree. Not exactly but roughly so. We've already noticed that the episodes in this season mirror the order of the episodes in the first season. Even the focus of each episode is the same. Kate-centric episode... a Locke one... then a Jack one... and next a Sun/Jin one... So, this season is mirroring the first season. But, guess what? It goes beyond that, but nobody noticed.
What happened in the second season?
- They found their way to the hatch. They argued over whether to do something (push the button) in the hatch.
- They explored a lot of the various hatches and locations of Dharma.
- Several of the survivors are taken prisoner by the Others and stay with them for a while in one of the Dharma locations. They are gone from the survivors camp for nearly 3 weeks.
- Sawyer gets possession of all of the guns.
- And they also dealt with another group of survivors who crashed elsewhere on the island, a group which included a darkly cynical woman who is experienced with guns (Anna Lucia), a large husky brute of a guy who has a hidden softer side (Eko), and also a quiet and charming guy (Bernard).
- Ben (aka Henry Gale) is tortured by Sayid and held captive by the survivors, but one of the survivors betrays the rest by risking everything to rescue Ben, even though he knows Ben is the leader of the Others and is responsible for many terrible things
- The season ended with a lot of arguing over whether to push the button, and finally they don't push the button, and BOOM!
What happened in the 5th season?
- Well... Several of the survivors went to the Dharma village, where they lived for three years among the Dharma people, going around to a lot of the Dharma hatches and locations.
- Sawyer is put in charge of the guns (he becomes the Dharma sheriff.)
- Back in 1977, a young Ben is shot by Sayid. Jack and others refuse to help Ben, but another survivor takes it upon herself to kidnap (capture) Ben and risk everything to rescue him, even knowing he will be the leader of the Others and will be responsible for many terrible things.
- We also met some more survivors from a crash on another part the island, including a darkly cynical woman who is experienced with guns (Ilana), a large husky brute of a guy who has a hidden softer side (Bram), and also a quiet and charming guy (Caesar).
- And our main cast members found their way to (what would be the) hatch, where they argued over whether to use the modern technology to counteract the island's dangerous "energy." And then "pushed the button" and blew it up (or actually, it imploded, just like the hatch did in Season 2).
The series is very roughly parenthetical!
It is becoming increasingly apparent that this island takes to the extreme the concept of "history repeats itself." People who come here are cursed to repeat the same scenarios again and again. Sometimes, people come to the island and replace other individuals, taking over their roles in these ongoing and repeating dramas. Locke replaced Ben, Claire replaced Rousseau, etc. As the adversary cynically pointed out, the same thing(s) happen every time. History repeats itself to the extreme on this island, on and on, with no end in sight.
And, no, I haven't even begun to investigate whether Season 4 mirrors Season 3. But certainly I see a lot of strong parallels between 6 & 1..... and 5 & 2. More on this later.
P.S. I just submitted this theory to Theories On Lost blog.
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