T-Minus 4 Days till Weitz Permanent Collaborators Status

Poly said:

I don't know where you get the idea that people here are suggesting that you attack the woman thinking about getting an abortion.

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Maybe "attack" is too strong a word. But this is where I get the idea (not having been here long enough to provide better):

Prolifeguyswife said:

I don't think I've seen hateful attitudes on TOL towards unwed mothers. I think it's just towards the unwed mothers of dead babies...

I'm not concerned with sparing the "feelings" of women who are considering killing their children. I'm concerned with sparing the lives of the children that will be murdered if no one speaks up for them.

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and this:

Now attacking the ones who actually murder the babies is another story. They should be rebuked and exposed. There should be no compassion where they're concerned.

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It is those who've btdt who seem to have the most impact on women facing these choices. The woman who has killed her child suffers greatly for her act - the Holy Spirit sees to that - so that she may be drawn to the One who can forgive & heal her wounded heart. Compassion is for all. It is horrifying to me that a Christian would attempt to condemn someone (it is what you do when you attempt to deny compassion - the second chance that is new every morning), when it is God's alone to condemn, and He only does it at the Judgement (at death).

nicholsmom said:

Changing the "hearts & minds of women" is not about "touchy-feeliness" it's about using the most effective means of reaching them. Babies are not going to be saved, nor are the women themselves, by being attacked. They need to be taken by the hand & shown the truth in love. They will not be led to crisis pregnancy centers by people who see them as "women who are considering killing their children", but rather by people who want to help them make a wise choice for life. Like it or not, it is an emotional event.

Babies are saved every day with this approach. It is what crisis pregnancy centers are all about. If the preganant woman didn't expect to be treated with kindness & compassion, she would not grace the doors of a crisis pregnancy center. It is pro-life rather than anti-abortion activities that have the most far-reaching affect upon the real battlegrouned - the hearts & minds of the woman facing a crisis pregnancy.

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Absolutely - as a crisis pregnancy center counselor, I agree that we should treat pregnant women with kindness and compassion. However, we do not do anyone any favors by failing to speak the truth to women considering abortion. The bottom line is, if we don't tell them that abortion is murder - that they are about to kill another person - many of them don't know! They've truly bought into the lie that it is just a blob of tissue.

The comment that
"It isn't useful either. I've never heard of anyone being saved by this method, nor of any baby being saved from abortion by it." is unfortunate, because it seems you've never tried it!

After years of standing outside of abortion clinics, trying to reach women there, and working in crisis pregnancy centers, I have seen people talk to women about to have an abortion in a "loving" way. They say, "God loves you no matter what!" I have never seen anyone swayed by this assurance. It's the women who hear that they are about to kill their children that change their minds. When they are told of the graphic horrors of an abortion procedure, many change their minds because they simply didn't know before I told them.

I offer compassion to the woman who has had an abortion and has repented. I offer help to the woman in an unplanned pregnancy who needs it. I love women in crisis pregnancies by telling them the truth, and making sure they are fully aware of their culpability in the abortion. To do any less would make me complacent to the real damage to come - damage to their child and to their soul.

Poly said, "Now attacking the ones who actually murder the babies is another story. They should be rebuked and exposed. There should be no compassion where they're concerned."

I believe that the women getting abortions are victims of a multi-billion dollar industry, but make no mistake, they are the ones actually murdering their babies. They share in the guilt, certainly. As I said, I am compassionate towards women who have had abortions. But they, also, should be rebuked - because we love them. The woman who has been rebuked and gives birth to a baby will rejoice, but the woman who has been "loved" right into an abortion clinic may not ever forgive herself - or you.

nicholsmom said:

It isn't useful either. I've never heard of anyone being saved by this method, nor of any baby being saved from abortion by it.

I know you've never before been pregnant, but you must know that even women in the best of situations is overly emotional when pregnant. You can't just gloss that over, or make is a non-reality, just because it makes you uncomfortable.

It is what it is.

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Our church saves about 100 babies per year at abortion clinics (and we are just a tiny church). We speak the the truth to those entering to kill their babies even though that truth is often times unavoidably painful.

Therefore now that you have heard of it's effectiveness does that change your opinion?

Knight said:

Our church saves about 100 babies per year at abortion clinics (and we are just a tiny church). We speak the the truth to those entering to kill their babies even though that truth is often times unavoidably painful.

Therefore now that you have heard of it's effectiveness does that change your opinion?

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You mean to tell me that you yell "you baby killer!!" and get this response?

Prolifeguyswife said:

Absolutely - as a crisis pregnancy center counselor, I agree that we should treat pregnant women with kindness and compassion. However, we do not do anyone any favors by failing to speak the truth to women considering abortion. The bottom line is, if we don't tell them that abortion is murder - that they are about to kill another person - many of them don't know! They've truly bought into the lie that it is just a blob of tissue.

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I agree. I never advocate telling lies or glossing over the truth. Just tell it in love. We send the wrong message when we major on the minors - attacking abortion clinics - better to let them go out of business when we've changed those hearts and minds; or force them to adhere to the same standards as other medical clinics (not so in IN :madmad: ); or require complete information be given; that kind of thing. And talking to those entering abortion clinics is very useful.

The comment that
"It isn't useful either. I've never heard of anyone being saved by this method, nor of any baby being saved from abortion by it." is unfortunate, because it seems you've never tried it!

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Perhaps the method of interaction with these women has been misrepresented by those using it. It sounds to me like there is lots of condemnation going on, and not much compassionate counciling. It is absolutely wrong to not inform, but it must be done correctly, and the attitude that has been expressed here has been condemnatory rather than compassionate.

After years of standing outside of abortion clinics, trying to reach women there, and working in crisis pregnancy centers, I have seen people talk to women about to have an abortion in a "loving" way. They say, "God loves you no matter what!" I have never seen anyone swayed by this assurance. It's the women who hear that they are about to kill their children that change their minds. When they are told of the graphic horrors of an abortion procedure, many change their minds because they simply didn't know before I told them.

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If you see me as this sort of person, then I've misrepresented myself. It is of utmost importance to turn their eyes upon the Lover of their Souls - who is Truth. I can't imagine being able to turn the tide with words of concilliation like "God loves you no matter what." It is quite beside the point and will only give them assurance that they will not suffer for their choices. I am not that sort.
I do think that reminding them that the "product of conception" is, in fact, a child -their child that will die as a result of the "procedure" they are contemplating, is more than a good idea, it's essential.

I offer compassion to the woman who has had an abortion and has repented. I offer help to the woman in an unplanned pregnancy who needs it. I love women in crisis pregnancies by telling them the truth, and making sure they are fully aware of their culpability in the abortion. To do any less would make me complacent to the real damage to come - damage to their child and to their soul.

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I do believe that we agree on much, much more than we disagree. I don't see anything to argue with here.

Poly said, "Now attacking the ones who actually murder the babies is another story. They should be rebuked and exposed. There should be no compassion where they're concerned."

I believe that the women getting abortions are victims of a multi-billion dollar industry, but make no mistake, they are the ones actually murdering their babies. They share in the guilt, certainly. As I said, I am compassionate towards women who have had abortions. But they, also, should be rebuked - because we love them. The woman who has been rebuked and gives birth to a baby will rejoice, but the woman who has been "loved" right into an abortion clinic may not ever forgive herself - or you.

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Saying that someone is culpable and saying that they deserve no compassion are two completely different things. Poly would withhold what is God's alone to give.

I do not in any way believe that plush-toy love is what anyone needs when they are looking sin in the face. Real love is what I'm talking about - the stuff of 1 Cor 13. We need Truth; let us remember that He is also Love - not the gushy, plush-toy, make-believe stuff, but the real thing.

nicholsmom said:

I agree. I never advocate telling lies or glossing over the truth. Just tell it in love. We send the wrong message when we major on the minors - attacking abortion clinics - better to let them go out of business when we've changed those hearts and minds;

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I guess I don't know what "tell it in love" or "change those hearts and minds" means. Inside a crisis pregnancy center, I tell them the truth - bluntly. I offer a shoulder to cry on and real help. I do the same standing outside abortion clinics, telling women it's not too late to change their minds. It seems like we agree, but I'm not certain what you mean by "attacking abortion clinics."

nicholsmom said:

You mean to tell me that you yell "you baby killer!!" and get this response?

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Yes! Or "Don't kill your baby" or "It's not too late" or any number of "harsh" words to show the reality of what the women are about to do.

Even "baby killer" is better than nothing at all.

Prolifeguyswife said:

I don't think I've seen hateful attitudes on TOL towards unwed mothers. I think it's just towards the unwed mothers of dead babies.
I've never heard a woman say "I wish I'd had an abortion", but I've heard hundreds of women say "I wish I'd had my baby."

I'm not concerned with sparing the "feelings" of women who are considering killing their children. I'm concerned with sparing the lives of the children that will be murdered if no one speaks up for them.

How many babies have you saved with your "winning the hearts and minds" theory? Thousands have been saved by speaking the truth, and offering real help to women in crisis pregnancies.

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You don't think that you've seen negative, hateful attitudes towards unwed mothers on TOL?

This thread's a doozy. Unwed mothers should be brutally beaten. Pregnant teens should be kicked out of school. Pregnant teens should be so ostracized and shamed that their families needing to move town to escape is an acceptable outcome.

MrRyanPeters said:

Most of these women want some guy telling them they care for them, while at the same time using them for their babies check, so the guy doesn't have to work. Next time you go to a store and see an unmarried unpaid whore, look at the guy she is with, see if he looks as if he is employed?

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The characterisation of unwed mothers as "whores" is not uncommon.

MrRyanPeters said:

If you could really look at the birth rates closely you would find that the out of wedlock mothers were teenage mothers. Since the Government gives a Check for each kid they pump out, they get a pay raise for their current Stud that is living off this money. If we would Cut off the Money for each kid born, you would soon find that they would quit pumping out the babies they don't want to begin with. In the California county that we live in you would think that there are no abortions, but their are, it must be working women. In our town, they keep pumping out babies until their baby machines are too old to pump out anymore. Ryan

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Here women and girls who happen to fall pregnant unexpectedly are so callous, unfeeling and manipulative that they're actually only conceiving babies and having them so that they get paid by the state.

Even bits like this-

The Berean said:

I miss the days when it was considered "shameful" to have an out-of--wedlock child. Now, it just another "lifestyle" choice. Very sad...

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It's certainly not as extreme as the previous examples but it's a widespread opinion held on this site. I understand the motivation to make premarital sex an unappealing, serious issue. I understand the desire for children to be born into families rather than to unprepared single mothers. Of course the stability of a family environment is better for babies.

One the girl is pregnant, it's all too late. She needs support and love otherwise she can always get rid of it. She can avoid being shamed and having her family need to leave town. She can continue to get an education. She can avoid being a pariah.

This is the sort of attitude that i would see as being a whole lot more helpful and successful than screaming "baby killer" at distressed women:

ebenz47037 said:

The thing is, I'm not opposed to people voluntarily helping women keep their babies. I've done so myself. I'm opposed to welfare. Huge difference here.

One of my "dreams" is to open up a home for unwed, pregnant teens to help them complete their educations so that they can support their children or to be there to support them emotionally if they decide to put the baby up for adoption.

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Bolding mine. It acknowledges the need for support and assistance, it doesn't ostracize or judge the women involved, it meets practical needs and emotional needs of the young women and their babies.

It's exactly what nicholsmom said. It's about being pro-life rather than anti-abortion.

When I was pregnant at 19, scared and completely unsure about what to or how I was possibly going to manage the situation, I'm so glad that I had people around me that told me I *could* deal with being a mother, that I would survive and where to go for help and support rather than just focusing on what a murderer I would have been had I aborted. I sought out pro-life people to talk to. There's no way I would have entered into a conversation with someone who was intimidating and frightening. I was scared enough.

johana said:

It acknowledges the need for support and assistance, it doesn't ostracize or judge the women involved, it meets practical needs and emotional needs of the young women and their babies.

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We are supposed to judge. If a girl comes to you for help (which is not as likely as if you're making yourself available in a crisis pregnancy center or outside an abortion clinic), and you tell her, "Please don't have an abortion." That is a judgment. You are evaluating the circumstance and judging that abortion is the wrong choice for her. It is impossible not to judge.

Even if you meet the needs of women in trouble (which most pro-lifers I know actively participate in), there is still a greater need to be met. People are needed on the front lines, in front of a clinic, to tell the girl one last time that she has other options. About 100 babies every year are saved just from people at my church who do this.

It takes all kinds of people to save babies - some to work at crisis pregnancy centers, some to provide for pregnant moms, and some to openly rebuke - loving the mom enough to tell her the truth.