Interplanner
Well-known member
There is nothing plain about Paul saying it was in the future. In both Rom 11 and Heb 8 it is happening now, as in 2 Cor 3-6. That idea comes out of nowhere.
ECT Yet Future?
- Thread starter Danoh
- Start date
There is nothing plain about Paul saying it was in the future. In both Rom 11 and Heb 8 it is happening now, as in 2 Cor 3-6. That idea comes out of nowhere.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Duh, it was happening then and continues to happen now: each in his own appointed times.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Why do you refuse to address what Jeremiah 31:31-34 actually says?
I am beginning to think that you are from the planet of the apes, seeing nothing and hearing nothing because your eyes are closed and you are deaf!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
What about them? They certainly did not belong or will not belong to the generation of the physical descendants of Israel described at Jeremiah 31:31-34. When that prophecy will be fulfilled then all of them, from the least of them to the greatest of them, will know the LORD and have their sins forgiven.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Oh, so there are conditions? Oh I see. And so not ALL Israel gets saved because those didn't. So it's really shriveling. In fact, it is sounding very much like it those who believe the Gospel who are saved. Wow, what a concept. Because then it seems like it might be, gosh is it really? could it be true that the same thing... man I can't believe I'm saying this! The same thing that saves Jews saves other christians! Crikey, I can't believe this is happening. How can this be?
OH, Jews get justification from their sins and they get real estate! That's it. Yeah, that's just so clear. Repent of your sins and honor God with your life, and you will get justification from sins, but God will also restart Judaism and animal sacrifices and all the old covenant and shellfish rules, and you (Jews) get to live there, while the rest of believers are on the NHNE. Sounds like a train wreck but give it try!
OH, Jews get justification from their sins and they get real estate! That's it. Yeah, that's just so clear. Repent of your sins and honor God with your life, and you will get justification from sins, but God will also restart Judaism and animal sacrifices and all the old covenant and shellfish rules, and you (Jews) get to live there, while the rest of believers are on the NHNE. Sounds like a train wreck but give it try!
Ask Mr. Religion
☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) 	
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
The Israel of God
The Israel of God
http://rscottclark.org/2003/09/the-israel-of-god/
Unfortunately, many evangelicals hold one of two common positions on this issue: 1) separation theology; or 2) replacement theology.
Separation theology views Israel and the New Testament church as two relatively separate peoples of God. This viewpoint has become popular in recent decades through Scofieldian Dispensationalism, and continues to varying degrees in many contemporary expressions of Dispensationalism.
Replacement theology holds that ethnic Israel has ceased to be special in the eyes of God.
I believe both views to be incorrect. Rather, from Scripture we find the New Testament church is one with Israel of the Old Testament. The promises to Israel are not abrogated, but extended and fulfilled through the salvation of both Jews and Gentiles in the New Testament community.
Paul's statement in Romans 11:26 that "all Israel will be saved" points to this strong sense of unity. Here "all Israel" refers neither to believing Jews alone, nor to believers within the New Testament church alone. Instead, "all Israel" denotes the combined number of believing Jews and Gentiles from both the Old and New Testaments periods.
When the Gentiles shall come in, the Jews also shall return, not each and every Gentile or Jew, rather all those elected by God... and thus shall be completed the salvation of the whole Israel of God (Gal. 6:16), which must be gathered from both, and yet in such a way that the Jews obtained the first place by the earthly ministry of Our Lord to Israel. We can rightly say that Jesus ministered to the Jews for the Gentiles.
It is through this ministry that the Gentiles would come to be grafted into the vine (Israel). This is why we refer to Israel as the church and the church as Israel, the Israel of God, for the invisible church makes absolutely no distinction between ethnic Israel and the church. The full number of the elect from all ages and nations comprise the one invisible church. In this respect, absolutely no distinction exists between the believing Jews of the Old Testament era and the Christian Jews and Gentiles of the New Testament era. All the elect have equal status and utter unity in the invisible church.
AMR
The Israel of God
The Israel of God:
http://rscottclark.org/2003/09/the-israel-of-god/
Unfortunately, many evangelicals hold one of two common positions on this issue: 1) separation theology; or 2) replacement theology.
Separation theology views Israel and the New Testament church as two relatively separate peoples of God. This viewpoint has become popular in recent decades through Scofieldian Dispensationalism, and continues to varying degrees in many contemporary expressions of Dispensationalism.
Replacement theology holds that ethnic Israel has ceased to be special in the eyes of God.
I believe both views to be incorrect. Rather, from Scripture we find the New Testament church is one with Israel of the Old Testament. The promises to Israel are not abrogated, but extended and fulfilled through the salvation of both Jews and Gentiles in the New Testament community.
Paul's statement in Romans 11:26 that "all Israel will be saved" points to this strong sense of unity. Here "all Israel" refers neither to believing Jews alone, nor to believers within the New Testament church alone. Instead, "all Israel" denotes the combined number of believing Jews and Gentiles from both the Old and New Testaments periods.
When the Gentiles shall come in, the Jews also shall return, not each and every Gentile or Jew, rather all those elected by God... and thus shall be completed the salvation of the whole Israel of God (Gal. 6:16), which must be gathered from both, and yet in such a way that the Jews obtained the first place by the earthly ministry of Our Lord to Israel. We can rightly say that Jesus ministered to the Jews for the Gentiles.
It is through this ministry that the Gentiles would come to be grafted into the vine (Israel). This is why we refer to Israel as the church and the church as Israel, the Israel of God, for the invisible church makes absolutely no distinction between ethnic Israel and the church. The full number of the elect from all ages and nations comprise the one invisible church. In this respect, absolutely no distinction exists between the believing Jews of the Old Testament era and the Christian Jews and Gentiles of the New Testament era. All the elect have equal status and utter unity in the invisible church.
AMR
Interplanner
Well-known member
Mostly good but D'ism says that the national Jew, the ethnic stock Jew has a separate program, and you need to say so (that it does not) to make a complete statement. Unless you think they do. Ryrie wrote that that was the 'absolute essential' of D'ism.
Yes, the all in 11:26 is accumulative down through time, and since 'in this way' is built in to the expression, he is referring to the method: faith in Christ. That's how they all get saved (justified from sin). No resumed monarchy or restored kingdom is intended.
I was just now reflecting on how that the endless writings of men (their ever endless commentaries) are ever more men comparing theological systems, than they are men comparing Scripture with Scripture.
Those of their readers who end up over relying on said, ever endless books "about" - ending up in their same approach.
I logged on, reflecting on that.
Only to find you two, doing...just that.
Nothing against either of you personally, but as often depicted in Scripture Itself: your approach renders such oblivious to being reasoned, with through the Scripture.
Those of their readers who end up over relying on said, ever endless books "about" - ending up in their same approach.
I logged on, reflecting on that.
Only to find you two, doing...just that.
Nothing against either of you personally, but as often depicted in Scripture Itself: your approach renders such oblivious to being reasoned, with through the Scripture.
"Paul's statement in Romans 11:26 that "all Israel will be saved" points to this strong sense of unity. Here "all Israel" refers neither to believing Jews alone, nor to believers within the New Testament church alone. Instead, "all Israel" denotes the combined number of believing Jews and Gentiles from both the Old and New Testaments periods."
Yes, this is pretty much what Calvin said about Romans 11: 26. "And so all Israel, etc. Many understand this of the Jewish people, as though Paul had said, that religion would again be restored among them as before: but I extend the word Israel to all the people of God, according to this meaning, — “When the Gentiles shall come in, the Jews also shall return from their defection to the obedience of faith; and thus shall be completed the salvation of the whole Israel of God, which must be gathered from both; and yet in such a way that the Jews shall obtain the first place, being as it were the first-born in God’s family.” This interpretation seems to me the most suitable, because Paul intended here to set forth the completion of the kingdom of Christ, which is by no means to be confined to the Jews, but is to include the whole world. The same manner of speaking we find in Galatians 6:16. The Israel of God is what he calls the Church, gathered alike from Jews and Gentiles; and he sets the people, thus collected from their dispersion, in opposition to the carnal children of Abraham, who had departed from his faith. "
But Paul does not bring in the concept of the church, from ekklesia, in Romans 11. In separation theology, Israel, by which is meant only Old Covenant Israel, and the church remain two distinctly different groups. When the idea of the church is brought in alongside of the Israel of God, this can invite confusion. Is there an Israel of God and also a church? No, there is not, if both are the elect.. There is one elect group, not two. The church, from ekklesia, must remain a meeting, assembly or congregation, as Tyndale meant.
Yes, this is pretty much what Calvin said about Romans 11: 26. "And so all Israel, etc. Many understand this of the Jewish people, as though Paul had said, that religion would again be restored among them as before: but I extend the word Israel to all the people of God, according to this meaning, — “When the Gentiles shall come in, the Jews also shall return from their defection to the obedience of faith; and thus shall be completed the salvation of the whole Israel of God, which must be gathered from both; and yet in such a way that the Jews shall obtain the first place, being as it were the first-born in God’s family.” This interpretation seems to me the most suitable, because Paul intended here to set forth the completion of the kingdom of Christ, which is by no means to be confined to the Jews, but is to include the whole world. The same manner of speaking we find in Galatians 6:16. The Israel of God is what he calls the Church, gathered alike from Jews and Gentiles; and he sets the people, thus collected from their dispersion, in opposition to the carnal children of Abraham, who had departed from his faith. "
But Paul does not bring in the concept of the church, from ekklesia, in Romans 11. In separation theology, Israel, by which is meant only Old Covenant Israel, and the church remain two distinctly different groups. When the idea of the church is brought in alongside of the Israel of God, this can invite confusion. Is there an Israel of God and also a church? No, there is not, if both are the elect.. There is one elect group, not two. The church, from ekklesia, must remain a meeting, assembly or congregation, as Tyndale meant.
No doubt this will draw some gnashing of teeth.
Genesis 15:1-4
1 After these things came Yah, the Word of YHWH, unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am your shield, and your exceedingly great reward.
2 And Abram said, Adoni Yah, and what is it you shall give me seeing I walk destitute, and the meshek-inheritor of my house is the dam-meshek-blood-inheritor Eliezer?
3 And Abram said, Behold, unto me you have not given a seed; and lo, the son-born in my house is disinheriting me.
4 And behold, the Word of YHWH unto him said, This shall not be your heir; but whom shall come forth out of your own me`eh-heart (seat of generation) shall be your heir.
For the same reason the Qumranites called their community "Damascus", (Qumran), because it means "blood-inheritor", and their community was founded and administered by Zadokite priests and Levites, (who vehemently disagreed with their own carnal minded Jerusalem brethren the "Sadducees", (Zadokites)).
The holy seed line has always been of the Spirit.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Once again you are wrong. Let us look at the verse in its "context":
"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:26-27).
Here is the "covenant" to which Paul makes reference:
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).
Here we can see that the "fathers" of those who will make up the house of Israel and the house of Judah are the physical descendants of Israel because it was them who broke the covenant. And since the fathers are the physical descendants of Israel then that means that those who will make up both houses will also be the physical descendants of Israel.
And all of those physical descendants, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, will know the LORD and they will have their sins forgiven. So the following words of Paul where he says that "all Israel will be saved" are referring to the physical descendants of Israel:
"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:26-27).
Last edited:
Well, your mention of the word meshak, just now, daqq, did remind me of a certain poster's ever warm smile
That is meshek . . .
And there is more: Enosh the son of Seth is "the first preacher of righteousness", for in his days men first began to preach or herald in the name of YHWH, (see Gen 4:26 YLT). If you count the generations from Enosh to Noah this makes Noah "the eighth preacher of righteousness", just as 2Pet 2:5 YLT says of him, (though not often rendered that way because of this misunderstanding). This also strongly implies that the seed line all the way back from Enosh the son of Seth came by way of the preaching and the hearing of the Word, that is to say, by faith, (Rom 10:14, 15, 16, 17).
Now you are just pasting without checking for yourself what has been said:
And that is because Paul does not say, "And so all Israel shall be saved", no, but rather, "And IN THIS MANNER all Israel shall be saved", no exceptions to the rule, (each in his or her own appointed times).
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Damn Skippy, easy to spread.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
And who is Israel but the great congregation.???
Lol - I prefer the homemade, organic Crunchy kind...