Why Calvinist Cannot Defend Their Doctrine of a Limited Atonement

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
I agree. I fellowship with people who believe in monergism as well a synergism. The points at which we divide should only be the essential truths that are expressed by such creeds as the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed. To me they embody the essential DNA of the seed of truth.

I too have noticed the tendency on the part of many who on the basis of a certain disagreement declare the other party to be an antichrist. I have been considered to be a legalist by some and an antinomian by others whereas I do not ascribe to either view. Someone recently called me a "viper" because I did not believe in sinless perfectionism.

I am not inclined to tell another poster what their eternal destiny is either. Of course there are some real heretics around here as well as unbelievers but it does neither of them any good for me to tell them they are going to hell...unless that happens to be the focus of the discussion.

I think people are not used to encountering Christians irl who are not in 100% agreement with them. Thus it may strike them as intolerable when they see people interpreting the word differently online. Since the voice of dissent are faceless names on the screen it is easy to demonize them.


The basis for fellowship with others is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

"And all that believed were together and had all things common" Acts 2:44.

They had all things in common because they all believed the same Gospel. How can one fellowship with someone that does not believe that Jesus is the savior of the world? (Calvinist)

How can a Christian fellowship with someone that thinks that the virgin Mary is devine? (Catholics)

Answer is, they can't.
 

Brother Ducky

New member
The basis for fellowship with others is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

"And all that believed were together and had all things common" Acts 2:44.

They had all things in common because they all believed the same Gospel. How can one fellowship with someone that does not believe that Jesus is the savior of the world? (Calvinist)

How can a Christian fellowship with someone that thinks that the virgin Mary is devine? (Catholics)

Reformed folk certainly believe that Jesus is the savior of the world; all who are saved are save by him. Jews and Gentiles. Male and female. From Afghanistan to Zimbabwe.

Answer is, they can't.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Yes he is.

B57 is a Hyper-Calvinist manqué as some of his views are outside even the Hyper-Calvinist camp.

Why do men become Hyper-Calvinists? Drawing from C. Daniel's The History And Theology Of Calvinism, the answer takes several forms. Many turn Hyper because they have over-reacted against Arminianism. Many were once Arminians themselves. Then they became Reformed. They soon looked askance at Arminianism and Arminians. Most Hyper-Calvinists do not think that Arminians are true Christians at all (Gadsby felt Wesley died unsaved). Therefore they have backed into Hyper-Calvinism out of over-reaction. But most mainstream Calvinists accept Evangelical Arminians as brothers - perhaps confused brothers, but still brothers. ;)

Together with this, in their love for the doctrines of grace some new Calvinists ("cage-stage" Calvinists) get the notion that the higher one goes in Calvinism, the better. To them, Hyper-Calvinism is Super-Calvinism, the best there is. Actually,’ hyper’ and ‘super’ are related in etymology they fail to heed the warnings of more mature Calvinists, such as the Puritans, who warned against being too high.

To change the metaphor, Hyper-Calvinists are “high” on their excesses; they are intoxicated on an imbalance and consider it the pinnacle of spirituality. But their critics know better. It is obvious that the Hyper-Calvinist’s ‘spirituality’ is dry and moribund. As someone said, “They go down deep, stay down long, come up dry. But they never go out to bring anyone in to the Kingdom of God.” Most Hypers are evangelistically dead.

This is related to what I call “the spirit of Hyper-Calvinism.” One can be a Hyper-Calvinist in spirit though not in letter. One can believe in free offers, but if he does not give them, he has the spirit of Hyper-Calvinism. This crops up in an overly passive approach to evangelism and prayer. Like the lazy man who says, “Let George do it”, the Christian bitten by the Hyper bug offers this excuse: “Let God do it.” But God commands us to preach the Gospel to every creature for it is by these ordinary means that His children are brought into the Kingdom of Heaven. If we do not, we are practical Antinomians with the Great Commission. Worse than that, we have the blood of sinners on our hands and invite God’s chastening.

At root, Hyperists over-emphasize the sovereignty of God over the responsibility of Man. Since our responsibility is based oh divine holiness, this means that they have an imbalanced doctrine of God - sovereignty is more important than holiness. They likewise exalt sovereignty over divine love, as when they deny all common grace to men as creatures. Further, they exalt the secret will over the revealed will, which they virtually abolish, contrary to Deut. 29:29.

Thankfully, Hyper-Calvinism is a distinct minority. No more than one-percent of Calvinists have been Hyper-Calvinists. They are not the cream of Calvinism. The best Calvinists are those who keep the beautiful balance within the Godhead and the divine attributes. They balance the revealed and the secret wills of God. And they live true Christian lives in that balance versus Hyper-Calvinism's stupefying effects which stunt their spiritual growth.

It is an ongoing trifle of mine in dealing with the backdraft of Hyper-Calvinists as they are very vocal with vitriolic rhetoric around discussion forums. Persons not well informed about Reformed thinking, immediately assume this vocal minority represents all of Calvinists. Er, no. :AMR:

AMR
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
B57 is a Hyper-Calvinist manqué as some of his views are outside even the Hyper-Calvinist camp.

Why do men become Hyper-Calvinists? Drawing from C. Daniel's The History And Theology Of Calvinism, the answer takes several forms. Many turn Hyper because they have over-reacted against Arminianism. Many were once Arminians themselves. Then they became Reformed. They soon looked askance at Arminianism and Arminians. Most Hyper-Calvinists do not think that Arminians are true Christians at all (Gadsby felt Wesley died unsaved). Therefore they have backed into Hyper-Calvinism out of over-reaction. But most mainstream Calvinists accept Evangelical Arminians as brothers - perhaps confused brothers, but still brothers. ;)

Together with this, in their love for the doctrines of grace some new Calvinists ("cage-stage" Calvinists) get the notion that the higher one goes in Calvinism, the better. To them, Hyper-Calvinism is Super-Calvinism, the best there is. Actually,’ hyper’ and ‘super’ are related in etymology they fail to heed the warnings of more mature Calvinists, such as the Puritans, who warned against being too high.

To change the metaphor, Hyper-Calvinists are “high” on their excesses; they are intoxicated on an imbalance and consider it the pinnacle of spirituality. But their critics know better. It is obvious that the Hyper-Calvinist’s ‘spirituality’ is dry and moribund. As someone said, “They go down deep, stay down long, come up dry. But they never go out to bring anyone in to the Kingdom of God.” Most Hypers are evangelistically dead.

This is related to what I call “the spirit of Hyper-Calvinism.” One can be a Hyper-Calvinist in spirit though not in letter. One can believe in free offers, but if he does not give them, he has the spirit of Hyper-Calvinism. This crops up in an overly passive approach to evangelism and prayer. Like the lazy man who says, “Let George do it”, the Christian bitten by the Hyper bug offers this excuse: “Let God do it.” But God commands us to preach the Gospel to every creature for it is by these ordinary means that His children are brought into the Kingdom of Heaven. If we do not, we are practical Antinomians with the Great Commission. Worse than that, we have the blood of sinners on our hands and invite God’s chastening.

At root, Hyperists over-emphasize the sovereignty of God over the responsibility of Man. Since our responsibility is based oh divine holiness, this means that they have an imbalanced doctrine of God - sovereignty is more important than holiness. They likewise exalt sovereignty over divine love, as when they deny all common grace to men as creatures. Further, they exalt the secret will over the revealed will, which they virtually abolish, contrary to Deut. 29:29.

Thankfully, Hyper-Calvinism is a distinct minority. No more than one-percent of Calvinists have been Hyper-Calvinists. They are not the cream of Calvinism. The best Calvinists are those who keep the beautiful balance within the Godhead and the divine attributes. They balance the revealed and the secret wills of God. And they live true Christian lives in that balance versus Hyper-Calvinism's stupefying effects which stunt their spiritual growth.

It is an ongoing trifle of mine in dealing with the backdraft of Hyper-Calvinists as they are very vocal with vitriolic rhetoric around discussion forums. Persons not well informed about Reformed thinking, immediately assume this vocal minority represents all of Calvinists. Er, no. :AMR:

AMR

Well, you most certainly have B57 and Nanja pegged.

However, I could say that you have to be one to know one, not that you are one.

The worst part of Calvinism and there are many bad points, is your doctrine of a limited atonement. If Jesus only atoned for some of the sins of the world, then what kind of a deal did God make with the devil?

Looking forward to your answer.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Well, you most certainly have B57 and Nanja pegged.

However, I could say that you have to be one to know one, not that you are one.

The worst part of Calvinism and there are many bad points, is your doctrine of a limited atonement. If Jesus only atoned for some of the sins of the world, then what kind of a deal did God make with the devil?

Looking forward to your answer.

Limited atonement is the Gospel of Gods Grace in Christ and if one doesn't believe it, their simply don't believe the Gospel, that is unbelief!
 

beloved57

Well-known member
B57 is a Hyper-Calvinist manqué as some of his views are outside even the Hyper-Calvinist camp.

Why do men become Hyper-Calvinists? Drawing from C. Daniel's The History And Theology Of Calvinism, the answer takes several forms. Many turn Hyper because they have over-reacted against Arminianism. Many were once Arminians themselves. Then they became Reformed. They soon looked askance at Arminianism and Arminians. Most Hyper-Calvinists do not think that Arminians are true Christians at all (Gadsby felt Wesley died unsaved). Therefore they have backed into Hyper-Calvinism out of over-reaction. But most mainstream Calvinists accept Evangelical Arminians as brothers - perhaps confused brothers, but still brothers. ;)

Together with this, in their love for the doctrines of grace some new Calvinists ("cage-stage" Calvinists) get the notion that the higher one goes in Calvinism, the better. To them, Hyper-Calvinism is Super-Calvinism, the best there is. Actually,’ hyper’ and ‘super’ are related in etymology they fail to heed the warnings of more mature Calvinists, such as the Puritans, who warned against being too high.

To change the metaphor, Hyper-Calvinists are “high” on their excesses; they are intoxicated on an imbalance and consider it the pinnacle of spirituality. But their critics know better. It is obvious that the Hyper-Calvinist’s ‘spirituality’ is dry and moribund. As someone said, “They go down deep, stay down long, come up dry. But they never go out to bring anyone in to the Kingdom of God.” Most Hypers are evangelistically dead.

This is related to what I call “the spirit of Hyper-Calvinism.” One can be a Hyper-Calvinist in spirit though not in letter. One can believe in free offers, but if he does not give them, he has the spirit of Hyper-Calvinism. This crops up in an overly passive approach to evangelism and prayer. Like the lazy man who says, “Let George do it”, the Christian bitten by the Hyper bug offers this excuse: “Let God do it.” But God commands us to preach the Gospel to every creature for it is by these ordinary means that His children are brought into the Kingdom of Heaven. If we do not, we are practical Antinomians with the Great Commission. Worse than that, we have the blood of sinners on our hands and invite God’s chastening.

At root, Hyperists over-emphasize the sovereignty of God over the responsibility of Man. Since our responsibility is based oh divine holiness, this means that they have an imbalanced doctrine of God - sovereignty is more important than holiness. They likewise exalt sovereignty over divine love, as when they deny all common grace to men as creatures. Further, they exalt the secret will over the revealed will, which they virtually abolish, contrary to Deut. 29:29.

Thankfully, Hyper-Calvinism is a distinct minority. No more than one-percent of Calvinists have been Hyper-Calvinists. They are not the cream of Calvinism. The best Calvinists are those who keep the beautiful balance within the Godhead and the divine attributes. They balance the revealed and the secret wills of God. And they live true Christian lives in that balance versus Hyper-Calvinism's stupefying effects which stunt their spiritual growth.

It is an ongoing trifle of mine in dealing with the backdraft of Hyper-Calvinists as they are very vocal with vitriolic rhetoric around discussion forums. Persons not well informed about Reformed thinking, immediately assume this vocal minority represents all of Calvinists. Er, no. :AMR:

AMR

Synergism is Idolatry, a attack on the Sovereignty of God in Salvation! And you fellowship with the as Christianity!
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Limited atonement is the Gospel of Gods Grace in Christ and if one doesn't believe it, their simply don't believe the Gospel, that is unbelief!

Limited atonement is anti-bible, anti-Gospel, anti-Christ, anti-faith and anti-God.

It will be the one doctrine that will be your ticket to hell.
 

moparguy

New member
They can't defend it because there is no scripture to support it. Please show me one scripture that says Jesus only atoned for the sins of some, but not all.

Well, at least you've taken a step upwards in the constellation of underhanded dirty tactics.

Now instead of the blasphemous strawman, you're using the "but if the bible doesn't say it in so many words, it can't possibly mean it."

I counted that there are about 75 scriptures that say Jesus is the savior of the world, all men, whosoever. I cannot find one scripture that says that he has only atoned for some sins but not all sins.

"World" - so God saved the planet but not the humans, eh? After all, it SAYS "world."

"all men" - No women allowed, right?

"whosoever" - so, lucifer and his followers can be saved? After all, they are "who's."

Definition, who's better at it, God or Pate?

If God said "combing the desert" would you insist it must mean this:
7s0ALeF.gif
If not, than why not?

Dare you let God define what he means by those passages?
 
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Brother Ducky

New member
The worst part of Calvinism and there are many bad points, is your doctrine of a limited atonement. If Jesus only atoned for some of the sins of the world, then what kind of a deal did God make with the devil?

Looking forward to your answer.

So why in the world would you even begin to entertain the idea that God would have to strike a deal with the devil if he chose limited atonement?
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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The worst part of Calvinism and there are many bad points, is your doctrine of a limited atonement. If Jesus only atoned for some of the sins of the world, then what kind of a deal did God make with the devil?

Looking forward to your answer.
All are not saved, so atonement is limited no matter how you want to define it, Robert. Those are the plain facts. What remains to be said is how or why the limitation exists.

Hence, the fundamental issue about this topic is rooted one's synergistic or monergistic view of soteriology. You hold to the former, I to the latter. We both cannot be correct so one of us is confused. In general, I do not consider those I think confused about the topic to be lost, hell-bound, and sin-bent. You apparently do. It does not appear I will change your mind, nor will you change mine. The difference is that I do not spend the time God has granted me declaring daily all that differ with me are destined for eternal punishment.

Obviously, you think your purpose is to do so, repeatedly, stridently, and redundantly. The acedia you put on display in your unwillingness to dialog substantively or dig deeper to learn more will not be changed by anything I or others have to say. Rather your purpose is to cavil and sow discord...while getting yourself noticed. Would that you would examine your peculiarities and ask yourself why anyone would think your holding yourself forth as a teacher of what Holy Writ has to say on any matter of the faith we hold dear should be taken seriously.

AMR
 
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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
All are not saved, so atonement is limited no matter how you want to define it, Robert. Those are the plain facts. What remains to be said is how or why the limitation exists.

Hence, the fundamental issue about this topic is rooted one's synergistic or monergistic view of soteriology. You hold to the former, I to the latter. We both cannot be correct so one of us is confused. In general, I do not consider those I think confused about the topic to be lost, hell-bound, and sin-bent. You apparently do. It does not appear I will change your mind, nor will you change mine. The difference is that I do not spend the time God has granted me declaring daily all that differ with me are destined for eternal punishment.

Obviously, you think your purpose is to do so, repeatedly, stridently, and redundantly. The acedia you put on display in your unwillingness to dialog substantively or dig deeper to learn more will not be changed by anything I or others have to say. Rather your purpose is to cavil and sow discord...while getting yourself noticed. Would that you would examine your peculiarities and ask yourself why anyone would think your holding yourself forth as a teacher of what Holy Writ has to say on any matter of the faith we hold dear should be taken seriously.

AMR


I am not going to post a 1000 word refutal.

The Bible plainly says that Jesus is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. Salvation has been provided for all that want to be saved, so that now... "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Those two scriptures refute you and your doctrine.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
I am not going to post a 1000 word refutal.

The Bible plainly says that Jesus is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. Salvation has been provided for all that want to be saved, so that now... "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Those two scriptures refute you and your doctrine.

False comment, not supported by any scripture !
 
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