Why aren’t ‘the ungodly’ the ‘elect’ when they’re the ones for whom Christ died (Rom
- Thread starter zzub
- Start date
glorydaz
Well-known member
What did Jesus accomplish for those who never believe?
He does not forgive their sins.
He does not give them eternal life.
Perhaps it's time you rethink what it means to say Christ died for all men.
TestedandTried
New member
Here is one answer...
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12:
The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refuse to love the Truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the Truth but have delighted in wickedness.
TestedandTried
New member
Romans 6:9-10:
For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
II Corinthhians 5:14-15:
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
II Corinthians 5:19:
...that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
John 3:16:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
You see from the above passages that Christ died for all. However, key here, only those who believe in Him will be saved. This fact, that Christ loved and died for them, adds multiples to their sin of unbelief. Hope that you see this in Scripture.
glorydaz
Well-known member
This is a non response.
Do they refuse to love God or did God predestine them to refuse?
When was the powerful delusion sent? Presuming that God did not predestine the refusal and it was mans own choice to refuse, it seems that God interacts with man throughout; not predestining all things prior to the foundation of he world.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Another non-response. :think:
II Corinthhians 5:14-15:
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
Non? I don't see that. I see "for all".
glorydaz
Well-known member
Do you know what it actually means to "taste death". Did you read the verse in context? Are "all men" saved? Do "all men" have their sins forgiven? Who is being talked about here?
Heb. 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. 13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Just because you cite a verse, doesn't mean you understand it, and it doesn't mean it proves your point. Whatever your point might be. I asked you in what way did Jesus die for all?
The verse you cite there, is about believers who have been crucified with Christ...put off the old man and put on the new man. In other words, the church.
We already know Christ gave Himself for the church.
Ephesians 5:25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
glorydaz
Well-known member
What was your point? Jesus came for the lost sheep of Israel. Is that your point?
Am I supposed to guess what you might be suggesting by that non-quote?
Yes, actually.
Your point ?
Heb. 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man....
It was not; but yes, he did.
Depends on your understanding of predestination I guess.
GD, not sure why you are here. I am not a calvinist and this thread is based,in my view, on a calvinist false premise. I am not clear on what you view is.
glorydaz
Well-known member
My "view" is that even the Calvinists have the right to NOT be falsely accused, especially by someone who also preaches conditional salvation. It's a matter of fairness. I immediately saw you were unfair, so I addressed that.
glorydaz
Well-known member
You say you do, but I see no proof of it. Repeating the same verse tells me nothing about what you think it means. Did you read it in context, as I suggested? If so, you should have some insight......
TestedandTried
New member
I suppose one could say that these passages speak to the end time peoples since it is addressing end times in general. To my way of thinking the passages take a shift to encompass all peoples/unbelievers for all times??? But, as I say, there may be differing views and we/current readers and believers must heed this as a very strong warning from going astray into unbelief.
I believe the predestination passages. I also believe in freewill. One of the first freewill exercises might be Adam and Eve presented with the tree of knowledge of good and evil which was forbidden fruit. Also, God admonished Cain for his ungodly attitude when Cain was downcast because his offering wasn't considered acceptable...God said sin is crouching at the door and you must master it. I'll offer one more example, this from Israel. Before crossing into Canaan the Israelites were pronounced the Blessings and Curses of the Lord. In the end it was declared in their hearing...
Deuteronomy 30:19-20:
19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
As for predestination...
It would appear that as we have freewill that we have it, but God knows in advance how we shall exercise it.
I'm sure you are aware of the Romans example, but here it is again...
Romans 9:16-24:
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
Now after citing the above Romans passages perhaps I need to reverse myself on my postulate that we all have freewill, but God knows in advance how we will exercise it. One can go back another step to true inception of the plan for us and say it was all God's will and mercy which determined who are the elect...predestination. Our freewill may be considered a misnomer???