God's Truth
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YOU SAID IT DOES. Now prove it with scripture.
WHICH CHURCH WAS HEBREWS WRITTEN TO?
- Thread starter DougE
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YOU SAID IT DOES. Now prove it with scripture.
This is you punting trying to avoid the issue altogether.
Was Hagar (Ishmael's mother) a Hebrew? Or was she a gentile?
:yawn:
Don't need to. Logically speaking, your position asserts that he is a Gentile.
You still want scriptures?
Fine. Just look at all the ones that define was Jews are, which you yourself have quoted in this very thread, and then try to apply them to Ishmael and his descendants. They don't apply to him, so therefore Ishmael is not a jew. Using the definition you provided, a non-Jew is a Gentile.
Well, no, no one said that you claimed Ishmael was a Jew.
In fact, we've been saying the opposite, that your own position establishes him as a GENTILE.
Why can't you just come out and say it plainly, to establish your position?
GT: Was Ishmael a Jew or a Gentile?
If you say he was a Gentile, then we agree, and there's no need to argue any further on this subject.
However, if you say that Ishmael was a Jew, that runs counter to your own position, which establishes him as a Gentile, which means that either (Only if we assume you answer that he is a Jew; if you don't answer that he's a Jew, then the rest of this doesn't apply) your position is contradictory with your answer, and you should reexamine your position to see where you start to contradict yourself.
:yawn:
Two simple questions you simply refuse, for whatever reason, to answer:
Do you, GT, consider Ishmael to be a Gentile?
Was Ishmael the son of Abram, and therefore blood-related to Abram?
Sorry, GT, that's not how logic works.
I don't have to prove something is "by definition" something else. It's called the Law of Identity.
God's Truth
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You can yawn all you want, but you are the one who said Ishmael was a Gentile.
You still haven't proven it with scripture.
God's Truth
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Huh?
You said Ishmael was a Gentile, now prove it with scripture.
I gave scripture of the Samaritans who were blood related to Abraham, but they did not obey. They weren't called Gentiles, they were called Samaritans.
Now back up what you told me and I will believe it if you give scripture.
Right Divider
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Ishmael is NOT a Jew (descendant of ISRAEL)... therefore.... BY DEFINITION he is a gentile.
You clearly didn't read what I posted.
Go read it again.
All of the scriptures that YOU have posted that define what a Jew is, those are my supporting verses. And because those verses do not apply to Ishmael, that, by definition, makes him a Gentile.
They were called Samaritans because they were from Samaria, a geographical location in the center of Israel. Neither of the terms "Jew" nor "Gentile" describe a geographical location. Your statement that they were Samaritans has nothing to do with whether they were Jew or Gentile.
From the Jews' perspective, they were Gentiles, because they were descendants of Jews who had married Gentiles.
From the Gentiles' perspective, they were Jews because they kept the law of moses to at least some extent.
Because of this, they were outcasts from BOTH groups. Again, being from Samaria has nothing to do with it.
:blabla:
God's Truth
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Prove it with scripture.
Jesus said stay away from the GENTILES and the SAMARITANS.
God's Truth
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Prove it with scripture that he is a Gentile.
Right Divider
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You as clueless as can be. You cannot think a single logical thought.
God's Truth
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You aren't speaking according to the Word.
You know you can't prove with scripture that Ishmael is called a Gentile.
AND, more importantly, the thread was derailed all because I said a Jew was a person blood related to Abraham AND obeyed the law.
Ishmael is the father of the Arab nations. You think he is not a gentile.
God's Truth
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Jews were people blood related to Abraham and obeyed the law.
A Gentile was someone not blood related to Abraham and did not obey the law.
Ishmael was no better than a Samaritan. His mother was not a Jew even though Abraham was his Father. He was a halfbreed shunned by the Jews.
Right Divider
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Wrong again, as per your usual.
The Bible says that Ishmael is not a Jew... therefore he is a gentile. That you cannot understand that is obvious.
Then you should go back and EDIT your post where you say this:
It is just as INCORRECT as the day that you posted it.
Right Divider
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Please show where scripture defines a Jew that way.
You must LOVE to be WRONG.
A gentile is anyone that is not a descendant of Israel.
This is all a bit silly.
1. Being a Jew isn't a strictly genetic thing. If you have any doubt, ask King David's great grandmother.
2. The concept of "Jew" or even "Israelite" didn't exist in the time of Abraham.
3. On a personal note, it is really disturbing to have non-Jews discussing what or who a Jew exactly is. Let the tribe figure it out for itself.
Chair
1. Being a Jew isn't a strictly genetic thing. If you have any doubt, ask King David's great grandmother.
2. The concept of "Jew" or even "Israelite" didn't exist in the time of Abraham.
3. On a personal note, it is really disturbing to have non-Jews discussing what or who a Jew exactly is. Let the tribe figure it out for itself.
Chair
God's Truth
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The point I was making is that a Jew is a blood relative through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and one who obeys the old law.
Others here started going against me for saying that and they can't prove me wrong so they keep talking about Ishmael.
God's Truth
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Ishmael isn't called a Gentile and neither are the Samaritans.
The Samaritans are blood related to Abraham.
God's Truth
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A Jew is one blood related to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
God loved ABRAHAM because he believed in God and OBEYED God.
God said that since Abraham obeyed Him, He will make Abraham's DESCENDANTS blessed. That means those who are blood related to Abraham will be blessed because God would bring the Savior through a descendant of Abraham, because God loved Abraham.
The descendants/blood relatives had to be in a covenant with God and get circumcised, and obey the old law.
When Jesus came to give a new covenant not based on the purification works, but rather based on faith, it no longer mattered who was blood related to Abraham, because Jesus finally was here and it only matters who comes to God through Jesus' blood by faith.
John 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Romans 9 3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
God's Sovereign Choice
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.