ECT What Kind of Death?

[Jerry Shugart]

In what sense will believers never die?

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (Jn.11:25-26).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Second death?

Spiritual death?

Both?

Neither?

 

[glorydaz]

Spiritual death.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Spiritual death.

Yes, spiritual death. But also the "second death":

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Rev.21:8).​

I think that what the Lord Jesus said at John 11:25-26 is the very best passage from the Bible which proves that the Christian is eternally secure.

 

[glorydaz]

Yes, spiritual death. But also the "second death":

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Rev.21:8).​

I think that what the Lord Jesus said at John 11:25-26 is the very best passage from the Bible which proves that the Christian is eternally secure.

Yes, it's an excellent passage. :thumb:

 

[DAN P]

In what sense will believers never die?

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (Jn.11:25-26).​

Hi and here is what I see , in John 11:25 !!

#1 The context of John 25 , is explained in verse 24 , where it reads , Martha saith unto Him , I know that he shall rise in the resurrection at the LAST DAY !!

The context is Israel and our resurrection is in 1 Thess 4:13-18 !!

dan p

 

[Danoh]

In what sense will believers never die?

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (Jn.11:25-26).​

His point - to those of ISRAEL (Mt. 15:24) who Believe on Him - was that even should they die, they would live again - for He is The Resurrection; The Life...itself.

John 11:21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 11:22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

Yet shall he live?

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

What else?

5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

They - of ISRAEL - that have done good?

John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.

8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.


When will that be?

8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

Again, when will that be?

8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Hunh?

Abraham saw His day?

What day was that?

Better yet, when is that day?

Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

When is this day of THEIR Resurrection?

What day was this that Abraham had rejoiced to see (by faith)?

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. 20:39 Then certain of the scribes answering said, Master, thou hast well said. 20:40 And after that they durst not ask him any question at all.

When again?

20:41 And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son? 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool. 20:44 David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?

When He returns to begin to make THEIR enemies His footstool.

It is THAT Resurrection - THEIR Resurrection that He was referring to as to this issue of what kind of death He will one day resurrect THEM from.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Nevertheless, Rom. 14: 5 towards ya Jerry, in memory of Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead -"and by Whom WE have NOW received the atonement." Rom. 5: 11B.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

They - of ISRAEL - that have done good?

You left out the part (just a few verses earlier) where the Lord Jesus told them exactly what they must do to inherit eternal life and therefore "do good":

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).​

The following words also apply to the Jewish believers:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

The following words of the Lord Jesus makes it plain that the Jews who lived under the law received life as a result of their faith:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hi and here is what I see , in John 11:25 !!

#1 The context of John 25 , is explained in verse 24 , where it reads , Martha saith unto Him , I know that he shall rise in the resurrection at the LAST DAY !!

The context is Israel and our resurrection is in 1 Thess 4:13-18 !!

At the time when those words were spoken the prophetic plan was still in view. But after Israel was temporarily set aside things changed. The Jewish believers were told to be expecting the appearance of the Lord Jesus and that when that happened they would put on bodies just like His body at the rapture:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).​

Since only members of the Body of Christ will be caught up at the rapture we know that John's epistles were addressed to members of the Church, which is His Body.

 

[Danoh]

You left out the part (just a few verses earlier) where the Lord Jesus told them exactly what they must do to inherit eternal life and therefore "do good":

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).​

The following words also apply to the Jewish believers:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

The following words of the Lord Jesus makes it plain that the Jews who lived under the law received life as a result of their faith:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

That's just your USUAL reading into one thing or another, once more.

After which you then set out to prove your false-positive...is anything but.

You're rather hopeless in this obviously long set in cement habit of yours.

As with most other of your assertions on one forum or another on TOL - you conclude a false-positive is a positive, run with it, assert it; marry it the more the obvious is pointed out to you, and just plain old wax worse and worse in it.

Fact of the matter is that in Matthew thru John, their Believing He is their Prophesied Christ goes hand in hand with the requirement - under the Law - of proving that is their ACTUAL belief about Him - by their works.

Because they were then STILL under "the Law FOR righteousness" given what the Law had actually set out to prove by that.

Fact of the matter is that the Law was not yet done proving what the Law was then STILL proving TO THAT NATION, and through their failure under the Law, to "THE WHOLE WORLD" - "that ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

Acts 17: 11, 12.

Rom. 5: 6-8.

 

[Danoh]

At the time when those words were spoken the prophetic plan was still in view. But after Israel was temporarily set aside things changed. The Jewish believers were told to be expecting the appearance of the Lord Jesus and that when that happened they would put on bodies just like His body at the rapture:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).​

Since only members of the Body of Christ will be caught up at the rapture we know that John's epistles were addressed to members of the Church, which is His Body.

More like since YOU insist that YOUR two plus two equals five...

For not only have you just now contradicted your post to me above that one to DanP, but you have also proven once more your inability to sort out even a simple passage like 1 John 3:2, due to your arriving at it with some other idea already in mind.

That passage is referring to the "Prophesied" 2nd Coming NOT to the Mystery's UnProphesied Pre-Trib Rapture.

Overall N-A-R-R-A-T-I-V-E Jerry - overall Flow - Of - Thought....

:doh:

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

"The world" John is referring to is obvious...

"His Own" - Believing and Unbelieving Israelites...

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. 5:41 I receive not honour from men. 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

In contrast to...

John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another. 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. 15:21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

What does 1 John begin with - these same issues...

1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us; ) 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Which gives us the ACTUAL sense of the following...

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

The ACTUAL sense of the following then?

A bit more on this "world" that John is ACTUALLY referring to...

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

2:12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Now, in light of ALL THAT, lets attempt to sort out the ACTUAL sense of the following...

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us (the Little Flock), that we (the Little Flock) should be called the sons of God: therefore the world (Unbelieving Israel) knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, NOW ARE WE (the Little Flock) TYE SONS OF GOD, and (BUT) it doth NOT YET appear (to Unbelieving Israel) what we (the Little Flock) shall be (before Unbelieving Iarael's very eyes): BUT WE KNOW that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

The ACTUAL sense of the rest of that?

John 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

When, as to verse 51?

Genesis 28:10 And Jacob went out from Beersheba, and went toward Haran. 28:11 And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep. 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. 28:13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Bad enough that incompetents - who continually fail to rightly divide the word of truth as to its things that differ - have failed to see the CONTINUANCE of ISRAEL's Land Promise in MANY a nuance WITHIN the Lord's various assertions - including those assertions of His having to do with His RETURN...

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

You, on the other hand, Jerry, have no excuse for insisting on fusing together into your hybrid, those things that differ in Scripture, between Israel's and the Body's Promises.

For you, supposedly hold a "Mid-Acts Perspective."

Rom. 14: 5; in memory of Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Fact of the matter is that in Matthew thru John, their Believing He is their Prophesied Christ goes hand in hand with the requirement - under the Law - of proving that is their ACTUAL belief about Him - by their works.

If they had to prove their faith by works then those who lived under the law could not be saved by grace. After all, if it is of works then it cannot be said to be of grace (Ro.4:4). And make no mistake about it, the Jews who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Have you never read that in the Bible? Have you never read what Paul said about David, who lived under the law?:

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:6-8).​

All you have shown me is the fact that you really do not believe what the Lord Jesus said to the Jews at John 5:24 and at John 6:63 and you do your best to insult those like me who actually believe what He said in those verses. All you prove is that you put more faith in what some men say about the Scriptures than you do in what the Scriptures actually say.

You, on the other hand, Jerry, have no excuse for insisting on fusing together into your hybrid, those things that differ in Scripture, between Israel's and the Body's Promises.

Are you even aware that only those in the Body of Christ will be caught up at the rapture? Are you even aware that Paul made it plain that the rapture is imminent?:

"For our citizenship is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body...The Lord is at hand (eggus)" (Phil.3:20-21;4:5).​

The Greek word eggus means "of times imminent and soon to come to pass" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Now let us look at a verse from the Hebrew epistles where the same coming of the Lord is described as being near:

"You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near" (James 5:8).​

The Greek word translated "is near" at James 5:8 is eggizo and in this verse that word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).

In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:

"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).​

There can only be one appearance of the Lord Jesus which can be described as being "imminent" and since only members of the Body of Christ will be caught up at that imminent appearance of the Lord Jesus then common sense dictates that those who received John's epistles were members of the Body of Christ.

Of course since you refuse to believe what the Lord and Savior said at John 5:24 and at John 6:63 you will also refuse to believe what James said at James 5:8.

I am not a hybrid Mid-Acts Dispensationalists because my beliefs about the Hebrew epistles match exactly those of the two giants of Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, Sir Robert Anderson and J.C. O'Hair, who said this:

"Peter and James and ten other apostles are going to sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:27 and 28). But I do not agree with Christians who say that the twelve apostles were not members of the Body of Christ...I make no such foolish statement...that these Epistles of Peter and James are not for this age...I use 1 Peter 3:18 in preaching the gospel of grace as frequently as I use any other verse" [emphasis mine] (J. C. O'Hair, The Accuser of the Brethren and the Brethren Concerning Bullingerism).​

 

[Danoh]

Jerry, you are one confused individual.

1 - Anderson's "Silence of God" is basically the Acts 28 Position.

His assertion that Acts represents a Pentecostal Dispensation is basically the error of the Acts 28ers and their equally incompetent cousins on here, the Acts 9 / Acts 28 Hybrids.

2 - And though O'Hair was very Mid-Acts (Acts 13) at the same time, because time eventually robbed him of any more time on this earth, he was simply not yet clear on various issues when he went home to the Lord.

Issues that only the next generation had been able to sort out, and that, based on all that he, Baker, and O'Hair had had right.

3 - And although throughout Scripture salvation is always presented as being by grace through faith (a Trans-Dispensational Issue), the object of said faith and how it is expressed is aalways presented Dispensational one.

A - Case in point, the content of that gospel preached unto Abraham, and that he had been required to believe, is not the same as the content of the gospel requiring one believe that Christ died for our sins.

B - Likewise as to the Law, if they actually believed God, then they were to keep the Law by faith (from a right heart attitude towards God).

4 - Lastly, why are you being so thin-skinned to nothing more than an objective, constructive criticism of your ever obviously faulty study approach and its unavoidable errors?

You are forever doing much worse - you are forever calling anyone names who does not agree with your many errors.

Its not lost on me you are an old warrior and should therefore be given your due respect.

I just don't confuse that with simply going along with your faulty approach and its various resulting errors.

Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Its not lost on me you are an old warrior and should therefore be given your due respect.

Good job of ignoring all the verses which I quoted.

And it is a sure thing you know nothing about salvation by grace because according to you "works" and "grace" are compatible. Therefore, since you know nothing about the grace of God it is certain that you haven't yet believed that gospel which saves.

Maybe one day you will actually start believing the Bible!

Anderson's "Silence of God" is basically the Acts 28 Position.

His assertion that Acts represents a Pentecostal Dispensation is basically the error of the Acts 28ers and their equally incompetent cousins on here, the Acts 9 / Acts 28 Hybrids.

You should actually read the book because here is what Anderson says:

"The apostle to the circumcision gives place to the apostle to the Gentiles as the central figure in the narrative, but yet in every place the Jew is still accorded a priority in the offer of blessing, and it is not until, in every place from Jerusalem round to Rome, that blessing has been despised, that the Pentecostal dispensation is brought to a close by the promulgation of the solemn decree, "The salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles" (The Silence of God, p.56).​

That happened at Acts 13:46 and Anderson says that on page 173.

Not only do you pervert the Bible but now you are doing your very best to misrepresent the person who is the father of systemized Mid Acts dispensationalism.

And though O'Hair was very Mid-Acts (Acts 13) at the same time, because time eventually robbed him of any more time on this earth, he was simply not yet clear on various issues when he went home to the Lord.

O'Hair had more knowledge of the Bible in his little finger than you will ever have. It sickens me to hear a person like you (who thinks that "works" and "grace" are compatible) actually think you know more about Mid Acts Dispensationalism than did J. C. O'Hair!

You are delusional!

 

[Danoh]

Fact of the matter, Jerry, is that Sir Robert Anderson held views that came to be known as the Acts 28 Position or Acts 28 Dispensationalism.

The following is from chapter 5 (pages 30, 31) of Anderson's nevertheless fascinating and well worth reading - "The Silence of God."

You are well aware of the following by him.

The implication is obvious: you have proven yourself incompetent at sorting out its obvious Acts 28er assertions (which various so called MADs have since erroneously mixed together with Actual Mid-Acts into a Hybrid of both).

I'll leave Anderson's words intact.

What you will highlight in your response should be more than sufficient to show you incapable of properly sorting out his actually intended meaning (given his obvious error).

In the preceding chapter evidential value of miracles the infidel is right and the Christian is wrong. It is not true that a revelation can only be made by miracles. The error of Paley’s thesis can be demonstrated by argument. It can be exemplified moreover by reference to the case of the Baptist, who, though the bearer of a Divine revelation of supreme importance, had no miracles to appeal to in support of it. (John 10:41) It has been further argued that, so far as their
evidential force was concerned, the “Christian miracles” were for that
favored people “of whom, as concerning the flesh, Christ came.” And if this be well founded we shall be prepared to find that so long as the kingdom was being preached to Jews, miracles abounded, but that when the gospel appealed to the heathen world, miracles lost their prominence, and soon entirely ceased. The question remains whether the sacred record will confirm this supposition.

Who can fail to mark the contrast between the earlier and the later chapters of the Acts of the Apostles? Measured by years the period they embrace is comparatively brief; but morally the latter portion of the narrative seems to belong to a different age. And such is in fact the case. A new dispensation has begun, and the Book of the Acts covers historically the period of the transition. “To the Jew first” is stamped on every page of it. The Savior’s prayer upon the Cross (Luke 23:34) had secured for the favored nation a respite from judgment. And the forgiveness asked for carried with it a right to priority in the proclamation of the great amnesty. When “the apostle of the circumcision,” by express revelation, brought the gospel to Gentiles they were relegated to a position akin to that formerly held by the “proselytes of the gate.” And even “the apostle of the
Gentiles” addressed himself first, in every place he visited, to the children of his own people. And this not from prejudice, but by Divine appointment. “It was necessary,” he declared at Pisidian Antioch, “that the word of God should first be spoken to you.” (Acts 13:46 (R.V.); c.f. 17:2, 10; 18:1-4) Even at Rome, deeply though he longed to visit the
Christians there (Romans 1:2), his first care was to summon “the chief of the Jews,” and to them “he testified the kingdom of God.” And not until the testimony had been rejected by the favored people did the word go forth,

“The salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and they will hear
it.” (Acts 28:17, 23, 28)

But, it will be objected, the Epistle to the Romans had been already written. True; but this only makes the narrative of the Acts still more significant. Those who profess to account for the Bible on natural principles seem ignorant of some of the main facts of the problem they pretend to solve. They give no explanation of the omissions of Scripture....

In his last paragraph there he basically does what he does in most of his books: he'll mention his awareness of views opposed to his own, held by others.

After which, just like whenever he is off in his other books, he'll go off into his use of his OWN logic as his defense of his conclusions.

It is his recurrent (consistent) pattern throughout all his writings.

Where he sticks to allowing the flow of thought of the passages, he is fine.

Where he breaks from it - forgetaboutit - off he goes into his OWN logic.

Just like the 28ers always do.

Just like those within Mid-Acts who have mixed the Acts 9 Position with the Acts 28's into an erroneous hybrid of both.

Just like YOU OFTEN do, Jerry.

Go ahead, sort out the above by Anderson so that it says what YOU are clearly reading INTO his words.

Me - I think I'll continue to stick with the basic Isaiah 8:20 study approach principle.

Rom. 5: 6-8.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Fact of the matter, Jerry, is that Sir Robert Anderson held views that came to be known as the Acts 28 Position or Acts 28 Dispensationalism.

Let us look at what he wrote:

"Who can fail to mark the contrast between the earlier and the later chapters of the Acts of the Apostles? Measured by years the period they embrace is comparatively brief; but morally the latter portion of the narrative seems to belong to a different age. And such is in fact the case. A new dispensation has begun, and the Book of the Acts covers historically the period of the transition."​

Here Anderson speaks of two different parts of the book of Acts--the earlier and the later chapters. And he says that the latter portion of the narrative seems to belong to a different age.

And the reason why he says that is true is because a new dispensation had begun. Therefore, if you will actually use your brain for a change you can see that the dispensation of which he spoke started before the later chapters of the book of Acts. It started during the Mid Acts period.

That is not when the Acts 28 people start the present dispensation.

Besides that, I already showed you that Anderson said the following:

"The apostle to the circumcision gives place to the apostle to the Gentiles as the central figure in the narrative, but yet in every place the Jew is still accorded a priority in the offer of blessing, and it is not until, in every place from Jerusalem round to Rome, that blessing has been despised, that the Pentecostal dispensation is brought to a close by the promulgation of the solemn decree, "The salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles" (The Silence of God, p.56).​

That happened at Acts 13:46 and Anderson says that on page 173.

The Acts 28 people do not say that any dispensation ended at Acts 13.

Besides that, I read in the Berean Searchlight at one time that Anderson offered to donate a lot of money after Bullinger's death to his foundation if only they would get rid of Charles Welch. They didn't and what happened under Welch is sad!

Now please quote anyone who represents the Acts 28 position where it is said that a dispensation ended in the Mid Acts period and another one started then. Otherwise, cease from misrepresenting what Anderson actually taught!

Since you consider yourself to be an expert on rightly dividing the Bible then lend us some of your wisdom and actually address what James said about an imminent appearing of the Lord Jesus at James 5:8.

 

[jamie]

If the OT applied to everyone why wouln't the NT apply to everyone?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If the OT applied to everyone why wouln't the NT apply to everyone?

"Apply" in what way?

 

[jamie]

"Apply" in what way?

Some say parts of the NT are not applicable to them.

For example Jesus said, "But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17)

 

[Danoh]

Let us look at what he wrote:

"Who can fail to mark the contrast between the earlier and the later chapters of the Acts of the Apostles? Measured by years the period they embrace is comparatively brief; but morally the latter portion of the narrative seems to belong to a different age. And such is in fact the case. A new dispensation has begun, and the Book of the Acts covers historically the period of the transition."​

Here Anderson speaks of two different parts of the book of Acts--the earlier and the later chapters. And he says that the latter portion of the narrative seems to belong to a different age.

And the reason why he says that is true is because a new dispensation had begun. Therefore, if you will actually use your brain for a change you can see that the dispensation of which he spoke started before the later chapters of the book of Acts. It started during the Mid Acts period.

That is not when the Acts 28 people start the present dispensation.

Besides that, I already showed you that Anderson said the following:

"The apostle to the circumcision gives place to the apostle to the Gentiles as the central figure in the narrative, but yet in every place the Jew is still accorded a priority in the offer of blessing, and it is not until, in every place from Jerusalem round to Rome, that blessing has been despised, that the Pentecostal dispensation is brought to a close by the promulgation of the solemn decree, "The salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles" (The Silence of God, p.56).​

That happened at Acts 13:46 and Anderson says that on page 173.

The Acts 28 people do not say that any dispensation ended at Acts 13.

Besides that, I read in the Berean Searchlight at one time that Anderson offered to donate a lot of money after Bullinger's death to his foundation if only they would get rid of Charles Welch. They didn't and what happened under Welch is sad!

Now please quote anyone who represents the Acts 28 position where it is said that a dispensation ended in the Mid Acts period and another one started then. Otherwise, cease from misrepresenting what Anderson actually taught!

Since you consider yourself to be an expert on rightly dividing the Bible then lend us some of your wisdom and actually address what James said about an imminent appearing of the Lord Jesus at James 5:8.

Yep - you highlighted exactly what I knew you would highlight.

Towards proving what YOU have erroneously read into his words in that book.

What Anderson is actually asserting by his "new dispensation" is the Acts 28er's and Acts 9 / 28 Hybrid's same assertion.

Both erroneously assert that things went from the preaching of Israel's kingdom to Israel alone, to...to the Jew first and also to the Gentiles...and then mostly to the Gentiles alone, or some such.

Which is erroneous.

Paul did NOT preach Israel's kingdom.

Anderson's words again...

...so long as the kingdom was being preached to Jews, miracles abounded, but that when the gospel appealed to the heathen world, miracles lost their prominence, and soon entirely ceased. The question remains whether the sacred record will confirm this supposition.

Nope, it will not.

A new dispensation has begun, and the Book of the Acts covers historically the period of the transition.

Meaning what, Sir Anderson?

“To the Jew first” is stamped on every page of it.

Anderson's "Pentecostal Dispensation."

The Savior’s prayer upon the Cross (Luke 23:34) had secured for the favored nation a respite from judgment. And the forgiveness asked for carried with it a right to priority in the proclamation of the great amnesty.

It is Acts 2 that he refers to as "a new dispensation."

(What he refers to later as "the Pentecostal Dispensation").

He sees that having begun in Acts 2 and continuing into the end of Acts.

He does not see the following as the ACTUAL MAD does; he does not see Acts 9 and 10 as as "a new dispensation."

Then again, neither do you, Jerry. Your incompetence has you beginning it in Acts 13.

Meaning, there isn't much hope of you seeing Anderson's obvious error either.

When “the apostle of the circumcision,” by express revelation, brought the gospel to Gentiles they were relegated to a position akin to that formerly held by the “proselytes of the gate.” And even “the apostle of the
Gentiles” addressed himself first, in every place he visited, to the children of his own people.

That is same error of Acts 28er and the Acts 9 / Acts 28 Hybrid.

Both use that as a basis of their Greeks as "blessers" and "part of Israel's promises" errors.

And this not from prejudice, but by Divine appointment. “It was necessary,” he declared at Pisidian Antioch, “that the word of God should first be spoken to you.” (Acts 13:46 (R.V.); c.f. 17:2, 10; 18:1-4)

Nope. That is not what that passage is referring to.

Israel was concluded having continued in the UNcircumcision of their forefathers IN ACTS 7.

MEANING God now viewed them as "heathen."

The Lord's Words to Israel as an assembly...

Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

The Spirit's Words to Israel as an assembly thru Stephen RIGHT BEFORE THEY MURDER HIM..

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

The Lord's Words thru Paul as to Israel's status as an assembly...

Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Paul's ACTS 9 Conversion AND Commissioning...

Galatians 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

You see this...

Acts 9:19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

That is ACTUALLY understood in the following manner...

Galatians 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Acts 9: 19 A - And when he had received meat, he was strengthened.

Galatians 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

Acts 9: 19 B -Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.

He was strengthened, took off for Arabia, then returned again to Damascus...

Acts 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

Israel had been concluded UNcircumcision, or heathen.

His "it was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first" was to them as UNcircumcision.

As in the following some years later, also...

Acts 18:6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

Back to Anderson's mis-fire...

Even at Rome, deeply though he longed to visit the Christians there (Romans 1:2), his first care was to summon “the chief of the Jews,” and to them “he testified the kingdom of God.”

Nope.

That is the Acts 28er Acts 9 / Acts 28 Hybrid version of that.

No surprise then, that Anderson ends that just as he does, with the following (just the 28ers and their cousins the "Acts 28ers in Acts 9 clothing" - as the Hybrids used to be referted to - also end that kind of thing with) :

And not until the testimony had been rejected by the favored people did the word go forth

“The salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and they will hear it.” (Acts 28:17, 23, 28)

That is Anderson's position in that book.

A position he did not see fit to revise via some later edition, as he does with other positions on things in other of his later revised books.

Twist his words how your obvious incompetence leads you to, Jerry, the obvious is very...obvious.

That you are one poor...reader of other men's words.

It is what it is.

Rom. 5: 6-8 towards you, nonetheless.