ECT What is the Will of God . . .

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The event that Jesus places in context with their redemption drawing nigh is his Second Coming. The event that Paul places in relation to "Death is swallowed up in victory" is when the dead are all raised together, and those left standing are then also changed. I understand these to be the same event.

Then what were those who came out of the abode of the dead with Jesus if not redeemed?

"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." Matthew 27:52,53 (KJV)
 

Rosenritter

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Then what were those who came out of the abode of the dead with Jesus if not redeemed?

They would be restored to life just like the son of the widow that housed Elijah. As they would not yet have been raised to immortality, I think it is a safe assumption that died later (rather than wandering the earth for ever) and but shall see better resurrection as we shall all together, "that they without us should not be made perfect."

Hebrews 11:35, 39-40 KJV
(35) Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
(39) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
(40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

There is a first resurrection and a second resurrection with a thousand years in between.

Revelation 20:5-6 KJV
(5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
(6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So it is the first resurrection that brings with it immortality and eternal life such that it is fulfilled "Death, where is thy sting?" But before that happens Christ appears in the air and destroys an Armageddon of armies that rise up against him. The events of Matthew 27:52-53 or 1 Kings 17:22 or Luke 8:55 or even Acts 20:10 (and alluded to in Hebrews 11:35) aren't counted as the first resurrection.These are isolated and exception miracles but we are never told that these were to eternal life. They don't register on the scale enough to warrant a number like "first" or "second."

If you wanted to say that they were redeemed as in God has redeemed them I might agree, but I must disagree if you meant that they have already received the promise of eternal life without the first resurrection.

Daniel 12:2 KJV
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29 KJV
(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Why would it say that they would awake to everlasting life (Daniel 12:2) if they already had everlasting life?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
So what was Acts 2 all about that you can believe the Holy Spirit was no longer needed after having been sealed by the Holy Spirit? You are speaking of 2 manifestations of the Holy Spirit that have never ceased because of Jesus Christ?

On the day of Pentecost those who repented and were baptized with water received a gift bestowed by the Holy Spirit, and here Paul speaks of that gift:

"Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit...For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues" (1 Cor.12:4,8-10).​

So when we look at all these things we can understand that the pouring out of the gift of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost was totally in regard to believers receiving the ability to speak in known languages of which they previously had no knowledge.
 

Cross Reference

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On the day of Pentecost those who repented and were baptized with water received a gift bestowed by the Holy Spirit, and here Paul speaks of that gift:

You forget: What precluded the gift of "hearing" by the crowd was the "hearing of faith" explained by Peter.. Otherwise the "speakers" were perceived as being drunk.

"Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit...For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues" (1 Cor.12:4,8-10).​

Spoken to and believed upon by Pentecostals. There were no "Cessationists" at this point in time to "muddy the water".


So when we look at all these things we can understand that the pouring out of the gift of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost was totally in regard to believers receiving the ability to speak in known languages of which they previously had no knowledge.

They still had no knowledge even after everything was said and done. It was an experience by the will of God received by their faith and obedience. When it was over they went about their learning of what a normal Christian was all about..

Remember: This is the 3rd manifestation of the Holy Spirit Jesus spoke of.
 

Cross Reference

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They would be restored to life just like the son of the widow that housed Elijah. As they would not yet have been raised to immortality, I think it is a safe assumption that died later (rather than wandering the earth for ever) and but shall see better resurrection as we shall all together, "that they without us should not be made perfect."

That doesn't sense. The widows son was not dead.

By the scriptures re: They resurrected with Jesus had died once. The bodies had seen corruption. They arose with Jesus. They would never died again either spiritally or physically. Start with this understanding: "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many". Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV)

Let it say what it says:

Why would it say that they would awake to everlasting life (Daniel 12:2) if they already had everlasting life?

That was what redemption was all about when Jesus set the righteous free from the curse of death, His own resurrection being the proof of it which, by the new covenant, ushered in this fact:

"To be absent [now] from the body is to be present with the Lord". 2Co.5:8 KJV.

Can you explain that verse in light of the fact that Jesus is in heaven at the right hand of God, His Father and ours, if we are born again?
 
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Rosenritter

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They would be restored to life just like the son of the widow that housed Elijah. As they would not yet have been raised to immortality, I think it is a safe assumption that died later (rather than wandering the earth for ever) and but shall see better resurrection as we shall all together, "that they without us should not be made perfect."

That doesn't sense. The widows son was not dead.

Are we both thinking of the same widow here? This was the passage I was referring to:

1 Kings 17:17-24 KJV
(17) And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him.
(18) And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son?
(19) And he said unto her, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed.
(20) And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?
(21) And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
(22) And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
(23) And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth.
(24) And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in thy mouth is truth.

I have always understood that passage to mean that her son was no longer breathing. But even if you were reading that to mean that his breathing was almost undetectable (now that you mention it I can see why you might say that) can you see how easily it might also be read that the son literally died as he had no more breath?
Spoiler
John Gill's Commentary
and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, see, thy son liveth; which no doubt was to her great surprise, and was a wonderful instance of divine power and goodness, and to which the apostle may have respect, Heb_11:35, Bunting (l) says, the inhabitants of this place now take upon them to show the chamber wherein the prophet Elias lived, when he raised the widow's child to life.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
1Ki 17:17-24
Neither faith nor obedience shut out afflictions and death. The child being dead, the mother spake to the prophet, rather to give vent to her sorrow, than in hope of relief. When God removes our comforts from us, he remembers our sins against us, perhaps the sins of our youth, though long since past. When God remembers our sins against us, he designs to teach us to remember them against ourselves, and to repent of them. Elijah's prayer was doubtless directed by the Holy Spirit. The child revived. See the power of prayer, and the power of Him who hears prayer.

Wesley commentary
1Ki 17:17 No breath - That is, he died. We must not think it strange, if we meet with sharp afflictions, even when we are in the way of eminent service to God.


Even if you understand that to mean that he was healed before dying from sickness, I listed other examples by specific scripture reference: Luke 8:55, Acts 20:10.... plus that passage in Hebrews which does say that women literally received their dead raised to life again. "Women received their dead raised to life again..." (Hebrews 11:35) So even if you understand Ezekiel differently you can choose any of those others as examples.

Does that make enough sense to continue back at that spot now? There were other times that people were raised from the dead besides Matthew 27:52-53.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
You forget: What precluded the gift of "hearing" by the crowd was the "hearing of faith" explained by Peter..

Those verses say nothing about any gift of hearing.

The gift of the Holy Spirit was the following gift which was bestowed by the Holy Spirit:

"Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit...For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues" (1 Cor.12:4,8-10).​
 

Rosenritter

New member
That was what redemption was all about when Jesus set the righteous free from the curse of death, His own resurrection being the proof of it which, by the new covenant, ushered in this fact:

1. Is there a specific scripture you are thinking of with reference to "Jesus set the righteous free from the curse of death?"
2. The indication is not that Jesus has already freed the dead, but that the hour is coming in which he will free the dead

John 5:28-29 KJV
(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Revelation 1:18 KJV
(18) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Has that hour come in which "all" that are in the graves shall hear his voice? That would be a very noticeable event and hard to miss. Revelation puts this event at the end of the world after Jesus returns and destroys his enemies. It hasn't happened yet.

"To be absent
[now] from the body is to be present with the Lord". 2Co.5:8 KJV.

Can you explain that verse in light of the fact that Jesus is in heaven at the right hand of God, His Father and ours, if we are born again?

Very easily. That's not the text, and there's no English translation that I am not aware of "is to be present" at that place. Your quotation was labelled as King James... but that wasn't King James. Here's the passage as it is supposed to read:

2 Corinthians 5:8 KJV
(8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

The correct text above gives these two states as a sequence or progression. One comes before and leads to the other, but it speaks nothing of the silence in between. And why would it? The dead do not know that they are dead (Ecc 9:5) so even from our perspective there is a clean transition between our death and resurrection to eternal life. The saint that perishes shall be raised from the dead upon his return and "so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

"And" (from the scripture) is a word of sequencing, whereas "is" (from your paraphrase) is a word of equivalence. Let's choose the scripture over the paraphrase.
 

Cross Reference

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Those verses say nothing about any gift of hearing.

I know, but so what? What would make it different than speaking? Either would be a miracle. I would venture to say you wouldn't have unserstood a word even if they were all were, at the same time, speaking English. Lets see, that would make it 120 voices all saying the same thing in the same language as the Holy Spirit gave then utterance.

The gift of the Holy Spirit was the following gift which was bestowed by the Holy Spirit:

"Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit...For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues" (1 Cor.12:4,8-10).​

Hey, I am a clasccical Pentecostal. You are preaching to the choir. Lets get on with what you don't understand or believe you do but can't make it fit into your cessationist doctrine?
 

Cross Reference

New member
1. Is there a specific scripture you are thinking of with reference to "Jesus set the righteous free from the curse of death?"
2. The indication is not that Jesus has already freed the dead, but that the hour is coming in which he will free the dead


"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many". Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV)

I offered this passage already.

Jesus Christ died to redeemedd ALL mankind. He accomplished that. To not believe that as apparently you don't, makes the new birth from above, impossible. There must first have been reconciliation with God which Jesus' shed blood was all about and without which there could not have been.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Hey, I am a clasccical Pentecostal. You are preaching to the choir. Lets get on with what you don't understand or believe you do but can't make it fit into your cessationist doctrine?

Do you really think that the present dispensation began on the day of Pentecost?

Do you really think that the following promise belongs to those in the Body of Christ today?:

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover" (Mk.16:17-18).​
 

Cross Reference

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Do you really think that the present dispensation began on the day of Pentecost?

The Church surely did.

Do you really think that the following promise belongs to those in the Body of Christ today?:

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover" (Mk.16:17-18).​

Yes. Would you like to discuss why we don't see it happening except in a 'spotty' way?
 

Cross Reference

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As to your meaning above, as to the application of that term redemption, is that something you can show by direct statement, or is that your own inference?

That is good understanding from the scriptures. Redemption being the new foundation for a new creation Authored by Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:23 KJV
(23) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Pentecostals all.

Besides the passages above, it certainly does look like the redemption is a future event which is currently preceded by firstfruits of the Spirit (which is the earnest of our redemption and salvation.)

Not by rational thinking does it.

So I seem to have forgotten the original starting point. I think you were saying we are already had eternal life, whereas I was saying we have the conditional promise of eternal life which will be fulfilled when we are changed. I think the word "redemption" may be getting off track because it can also be used generically.

Funny, I don't remember you using the word, "Conditional".

I think the point that brings this back into focus is that we are told multiple times that it is possible to believe and taste of the Holy Ghost and still fall away into damnation. As such, I don't see how one could say that we literally have eternal life if we are still subject to destruction and eternal damnation before we are changed. In that light, I don't see how verb tenses even have weight, given that they can be used with imprecision for the purpose of metaphor or expression of a most certain faith of the future fulfillment.

And what would be the eternal spiritual condition of that one who does not fall away??
 

Cross Reference

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Which church?

Pick one. Sorry to say they all call themselves the "Bride of Christ/Body of Christ. It did start out that why and cessationists along with the RCC, muddied the waters.

How does a person drink deadly things and remain alive in a "spotty" way?

He doesn't in any Spiritual way because he is tempting God. That ain't the "spotty" way I was suggesting. Stay focussed. There are many "Spiritually" sound churches is the world doing what you deny is possible. Why?
 

Cross Reference

New member
Three books that might help some of you:

"Church without Walls" by Stephen Arterberg

"Toxic Faith" by Jim Petersen

"The Way of the Cross" J. Gregor Mantle

And there is always anything by Oswald Chambers. His "Complete Works" is free PDF file download.
 

Rosenritter

New member
"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many". Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV)

I offered this passage already.

Jesus Christ died to redeemedd ALL mankind. He accomplished that. To not believe that as apparently you don't, makes the new birth from above, impossible. There must first have been reconciliation with God which Jesus' shed blood was all about and without which there could not have been.

That passage doesn't say they were set free from the curse of death. It just says that they were raised when he was killed. Also touching another thing you said earlier, it doesn't say they ascended with Jesus. It says that they came out and were seen by many.
 

Cross Reference

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That passage doesn't say they were set free from the curse of death. It just says that they were raised when he was killed. Also touching another thing you said earlier, it doesn't say they ascended with Jesus. It says that they came out and were seen by many.

C'mon. Gimmee a break: "It is appointed for man once to die and then the judgment" . . no exceptions..
 

Cross Reference

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Rosenritter,

I have repeatedly asked you if you were born Again. That is an easy question for you to answer. Why don't you give it??? . . Or maybe you can't because you aren't???
 
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Rosenritter

New member
C'mon. Gimmee a break: "It is appointed for man once to die and then the judgment" . . no exceptions..

I'm the one that ought to be saying, "C'mon, gimmee a break." I've already cited this passage. Are you suggesting that Eutychus somehow got transported forward in time to the judgment, then back again to hear the rest of Paul's preaching?

Acts 20:7-12 KJV
(7) And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
(8) And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.
(9) And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.
(10) And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.
(11) When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.
(12) And they brought the young man alive, and were not a little comforted.

The judgment is at the end of the world when Christ returns.

2 Peter 2:9 KJV
(9) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2 Peter 3:7 KJV
(7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Jude 1:6 KJV
(6) And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

The context of Hebrews 9:27 "it is appointed unto men once to die" is that Christ is our sacrifice to save us from the second death as spoken of in Revelation 2:11, Revelation 20:6, Revelation 20:14, and Revelation 21:8.

Hebrews 9:26-28 KJV
(26) For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
(27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
(28) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Even in that passage in Hebrews it says when he puts away the sin of the world, and it says it is at the end of the world. Thus, attempting to interpret Hebrews 9:27 out of context to make it mean that God cannot restore mortal life to someone in this world and still allow them to die their appointed death later on and appear in the judgment in not justified.

If nothing else, see the example of Eutychus above. Does it give any indication that he was raised immortal and incorruptible? No, of course not, but if that were the case it would certainly demand mention.
 
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