Sounds a bit "workish" joy boy
What is the Gospel?
- Thread starter Sonnet
- Start date
Luke 24:46-48 (KJV)
Luke 24:
Witnesses. μάρτυρες
Martyrs.
Luke 24:
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
Witnesses. μάρτυρες
Martyrs.
Sonnet
New member
Sonnet
New member
Presumably, unless I believe the Creation account of Adam and Eve and the Noachian flood then I am disbelieving Jesus.
glorydaz
Well-known member
You make a good point, but, in truth, they witnessed more than the Resurrection.
Acts 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
If it was the resurrection ALONE that Paul is talking about, then Lazarus could be worshipped as well...there were witnesses to his being raised from the dead. Others were raised from the dead when Christ was, and they were seen of many.
You cite Romans 10:9, and seem to be overlooking a critical factor. Jesus was no ordinary man, like Lazarus, He was THE LORD. Therefore, HIS DEATH was paramount. There is no way the resurrection could take on the import it does without the dying. The dying for the sins of the world. The sins of the world born on the body of our LORD GOD is what we are confessing when we believe.
Romans 10:9KJV
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
And 1 Cor. 15:14KJV...an equally valid point excepting you're missing the crucial point in what Paul is saying. Our faith would be in vain because we would still be in our sins. Sins were taken care of at the CROSS...not at the Resurrection.
1 Cor. 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
Sonnet
New member
As far as I understand it - those in the Grace movement will not preach such a Gospel. I could be wrong though.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I thought your problem was with the Gospel?
Apparently it's with the entire Bible.
Why not check out Scientology? You may find the answers you're looking for there. :think:
glorydaz
Well-known member
Your claim is not the Gospel's claim. AMR is correct. You moved the goal posts.
What you actually did was ADD to what Paul had written.
"And we conclude that Christ died for all men without exception."
Sonnet
New member
Is 1 Corinthians 15:3-5 the Gospel or not?
glorydaz
Well-known member
Head knowledge....not the same as being persuaded by the TRUTH of the Gospel. Not the same as believing in one's heart.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Well, no. It's not exactly quoting Paul. There was some ad lib in there that changed, ever so slightly, what Paul was saying.
Here we have His death, through which God made peace with man. The MUCH MORE spoken of here is the Resurrection. It's through the resurrection we have life.
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
What good would life be without Christ's death for our sins? Not much....we'd still be in our sins. A life locked away in a prison cell isn't too appealing.
Sonnet
New member
AMR does not agree with preaching the Gospel per 1 Cor. 15:3 to the unsaved.
Are you agreeing with him?
Ask Mr. Religion
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The Gospel
The Gospel
The only "problem" is your continued attempts to set up arguments and then sit back and take some glee in what ensues. You continue to seek "the" Gospel as if there is one definitive statement and all others are but summaries. Paul refers to the entire chapter 9 of Romans as "my gospel". I did point you to my discussion of this in a previous post, but to keep things localized here it is again:
So you can stop being coy and seeking something you think can be reduced to a few words for all parties. How about we just make bumper stickers and be done with the matter. Nonsense.
The Gospel concerns a great many important truths. The Gospel is not the modern day propensity for only presenting sections from Scripture that emphasize "making a decision", for this is the stuff of rank Finneyism, a bane upon the church today.
Modern evangelism stresses a decisional act of faith on the part of the sinner. It is convinced that the first aim of preaching is to call upon men to believe. It does not think the saving work of the Holy Spirit is necessary prior to faith. It holds that we believe in order to be born again, that faith precedes and effects regeneration. Faith, of course, is essential to salvation from beginning to end (e.g., Rom. 1:17; Heb. 11:6), and there is no time lapse between regeneration and the Spirit's implanting of saving faith in the heart of a sinner.
Reformed evangelism has a deeper and wider message to the unconverted which begins as did John the Baptist (Matthew 3:1-2 first, then John 1:29), Our Lord (Matthew 4:17, John 3:7, Mark 10:9), and Paul (Romans 1-3). All of them began with the dire state of the lost, their sin, and there inability to do anything about, and the remedy.
Let man try to obey the law for salvation. At first he will think he can do it. Then he will learn that he cannot possibly be as holy as the law demands. Wielded by the Spirit, the law condemns him, pronounces a curse upon him, and declares him liable to the wrath of God and the torments of hell (Gal. 3:10). Finally, he will come to the desperate realization that only God can save him by changing his heart and giving him a new nature. The Holy Spirit brings him to the end of the law, Christ Jesus, as the only righteousness acceptable with God (Gal. 3:24). For it was Our Lord who obeyed the law fully on the behalf of those who will believe upon Him, made sin for the believing ones, propitiated the wrath of God for their sins, died and rose again victorious over the power of death.
The Gospel is the remedy for man's present state of affairs, for man is lost, sin-bent, and hell-bound. You don't get someone saved until they have been shown to be lost.
The Gospel concerns Christ and His benefits, and of faith being fruitful in good works.
The Gospel remedy Is justification by faith (Romans 3:21-5:11). Justification means that God freely gives that righteousness that man can neither merit nor otherwise obtain, and yet without which he must perish.
Grace is the source of justification (Romans 3:24), because it originated in the mercy and loving kindness of God. God provided It, Christ performed it, and the Holy Spirit applies it.
The blood of Jesus Christ is the ground of justification (Romans 5:9) because Christ’s atonement met every claim of eternal justice, and God can justly accept us when clothed in Christ's righteousness.
Faith is the means by which we receive justification (Romans 5:1) for faith lays hold upon God’s grace and Christ’s sacrifice, and claims them for its personal saving possession.
Works are the evidence of justification (James 2:4), for real vital faith will manifest itself in real vital works. and holy deeds accompany Heavenly hopes.
Paul describes for us seven results of justification in Romans 5:1-5.
1 Peace with God.
2 Access into grace.
3 Rejoicing in the hope of God’s final triumph over all evil.
4 Glory in tribulation.
5 Patience.
6 Deepening religious experience.
7 Love of God shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.
In Romans 5:12-8:39, Paul then teaches us about the sanctification of the believer, for the true believer will want to be holy as God is Holy.
In Romans 9-11 we learn that not all Israel are the Israel of God.
In Romans 12-16 the Christian's consecration and duties are explained.
From the above, is there really little wonder why Paul would often refer to all of Romans as "my gospel"?
You have been reminded of your current state of affairs. You have been told that you must call upon the name of the Lord to be saved. Why? Because contained in that statement are all the presuppositions explained above and more. All of them, Sonnet, are the Gospel.
AMR
The Gospel
Sonnet,
The only "problem" is your continued attempts to set up arguments and then sit back and take some glee in what ensues. You continue to seek "the" Gospel as if there is one definitive statement and all others are but summaries. Paul refers to the entire chapter 9 of Romans as "my gospel". I did point you to my discussion of this in a previous post, but to keep things localized here it is again:
Spoiler
So you can stop being coy and seeking something you think can be reduced to a few words for all parties. How about we just make bumper stickers and be done with the matter. Nonsense.
The Gospel concerns a great many important truths. The Gospel is not the modern day propensity for only presenting sections from Scripture that emphasize "making a decision", for this is the stuff of rank Finneyism, a bane upon the church today.
Modern evangelism stresses a decisional act of faith on the part of the sinner. It is convinced that the first aim of preaching is to call upon men to believe. It does not think the saving work of the Holy Spirit is necessary prior to faith. It holds that we believe in order to be born again, that faith precedes and effects regeneration. Faith, of course, is essential to salvation from beginning to end (e.g., Rom. 1:17; Heb. 11:6), and there is no time lapse between regeneration and the Spirit's implanting of saving faith in the heart of a sinner.
Reformed evangelism has a deeper and wider message to the unconverted which begins as did John the Baptist (Matthew 3:1-2 first, then John 1:29), Our Lord (Matthew 4:17, John 3:7, Mark 10:9), and Paul (Romans 1-3). All of them began with the dire state of the lost, their sin, and there inability to do anything about, and the remedy.
Let man try to obey the law for salvation. At first he will think he can do it. Then he will learn that he cannot possibly be as holy as the law demands. Wielded by the Spirit, the law condemns him, pronounces a curse upon him, and declares him liable to the wrath of God and the torments of hell (Gal. 3:10). Finally, he will come to the desperate realization that only God can save him by changing his heart and giving him a new nature. The Holy Spirit brings him to the end of the law, Christ Jesus, as the only righteousness acceptable with God (Gal. 3:24). For it was Our Lord who obeyed the law fully on the behalf of those who will believe upon Him, made sin for the believing ones, propitiated the wrath of God for their sins, died and rose again victorious over the power of death.
The Gospel is the remedy for man's present state of affairs, for man is lost, sin-bent, and hell-bound. You don't get someone saved until they have been shown to be lost.
The Gospel concerns Christ and His benefits, and of faith being fruitful in good works.
The Gospel remedy Is justification by faith (Romans 3:21-5:11). Justification means that God freely gives that righteousness that man can neither merit nor otherwise obtain, and yet without which he must perish.
Grace is the source of justification (Romans 3:24), because it originated in the mercy and loving kindness of God. God provided It, Christ performed it, and the Holy Spirit applies it.
The blood of Jesus Christ is the ground of justification (Romans 5:9) because Christ’s atonement met every claim of eternal justice, and God can justly accept us when clothed in Christ's righteousness.
Faith is the means by which we receive justification (Romans 5:1) for faith lays hold upon God’s grace and Christ’s sacrifice, and claims them for its personal saving possession.
Works are the evidence of justification (James 2:4), for real vital faith will manifest itself in real vital works. and holy deeds accompany Heavenly hopes.
Paul describes for us seven results of justification in Romans 5:1-5.
1 Peace with God.
2 Access into grace.
3 Rejoicing in the hope of God’s final triumph over all evil.
4 Glory in tribulation.
5 Patience.
6 Deepening religious experience.
7 Love of God shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.
In Romans 5:12-8:39, Paul then teaches us about the sanctification of the believer, for the true believer will want to be holy as God is Holy.
In Romans 9-11 we learn that not all Israel are the Israel of God.
In Romans 12-16 the Christian's consecration and duties are explained.
From the above, is there really little wonder why Paul would often refer to all of Romans as "my gospel"?
You have been reminded of your current state of affairs. You have been told that you must call upon the name of the Lord to be saved. Why? Because contained in that statement are all the presuppositions explained above and more. All of them, Sonnet, are the Gospel.
AMR
glorydaz
Well-known member
Yep, but let's not start at verse three....let's look at the first two verses. Paul is reminding them of what he'd preached before....what he'd preached from the beginning.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2KJV
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
And what, I might add, AMR was referring to. "All that believe are justified from all things."
Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
So, your assumption that Paul is talking about all men without exception is your ASSUMPTION, and NOT what Paul said. You added to what he said according to your own understanding.
1 Corinthians 15:3-5
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
Sonnet
New member
All along you have been stressing that 1 Corinthians 15:3ff is the essence of the Gospel and yet now, finally, you limit it's scope. Are you going to go further and explicitly deny Paul ever preached this to unbelievers and that nobody ever should?
glorydaz
Well-known member
I don't believe you're correct....clearly you don't listen very well. You didn't listen to Heir, and you haven't listened to what I've said. You act like you have no ear to hear.
You're the only one I've ever heard that added "all men without exception" to that verse.
Concerning what?
It's true all those who believe are justified, if that's what you're asking.
Sonnet
New member
I have asked you a simple question and your answer is ambiguous - which appears to support the contention of the OP. Paul, however, unambiguously declares:
Whether then, it is I or they, this is what we preach and this is what you believed.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Seriously dude? :doh:
You don't listen. Nothing I have said has limited the scope of the Gospel.
UH.... The Gospel is always preached to unbelievers. Why would believers need to hear anew what they've already believed? Paul is reminding them again of what the Gospel entails. When Paul says, "our sins", he is talking to those who have already believed the same Gospel he has preached in the past. You would know this if you actually read what is written.
They had received it, believed it, and stood by it. "By which ye are saved". They are no longer unbelievers. He reminds them again of what that Gospel was that he had preached to them when they were unbelievers.
1 Cor. 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
I will quote the Apostle Paul again...same message, earlier date.
Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
The Gospel is always preached to unbelievers. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be SAVED, and justified from all things. Unbelievers won't be justified unless they believe, nor will they be saved.
You're trying so hard to prove some other point, that you read into what Paul is saying right here in these texts. :nono:
glorydaz
Well-known member
Tell you what. You know how to quote scripture....do it.
If your question is so simple, why am I left guessing about this "OP contention"....much less what you claim Paul is "unambiguously" declaring.