What is the Gospel?

[meshak]

4Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;b 6it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

This is the fruit of Spirit and core of Jesus' teachings and Christianity.

 

[Sonnet]

I've known Calvinist my entire life and have debated their doctrine for decades. You are just simply wrong.

Calvinist universally quote John 3:16 and believe that Jesus died for the whole world. They have a different (wrong) understanding of what Jesus meant by "whole world" but that does not equate to them denying that Jesus' death was propitiatory. They absolutely do believe that Jesus died for sin. There are LOTS and LOTS of things that Calvinists get wrong but whether Jesus' death had to do with paying for sin is not one of them. They deny that Jesus died for all sin but one of their major tenets is specifically about the fact that Jesus' death atoned for the sin of the elect. To deny that would just be aggressively stupid.

I'm wrong, you say, yet you affirm their denial that Jesus died for all sin...but died for sin. It may just be a semantic issue.

Paul simply said this is what we preach (1 Corinthians 15:11)...and his 'this' is vv.3-8.

What can be more powerful than telling a man that a man/God claims to have died for them to save them?

Jesus' death did, however, have to do with with more than just paying for sin. That is to say that His death accomplished more than just the satisfaction of justice. That was the key issue but there was more accomplished at Calvary than just that. There are all sorts of very deep spiritual truths that are all included in what is rightly called "the gospel" and, just to give one example, if some Christian pastor wants to give a sermon or a Christian lay person wants to have a discussion with his neighbor about how we are identified in Christ and that allowing Christ to live His life through us is the key to overcoming sin in our lives, then there is no requirement to also discuss the specific issue of Christ dying for sin at that moment. The gospel is a rather complex set of doctrines that are all intertwined and connected together. To discuss one aspect of the gospel does not imply the denial of other aspects of it, which seems to be what you are implying.

I don't see an issue here - one does not have to mention Jesus dying for a person's sin every time Jesus is spoken of.

In short, you're debating Limited Atonement, which is a doctrine that I've come to believe that no one can fully understand AND believe without their mind being broken. There are so many passages that just flatly contradict it, many of which you've quoted in this thread, that anyone who accepts it is in one of three categories; they are either deceived, delusional or deceptive. Those in the third may or may not also be in either of the first two but in any case, the doctrine is foolishness and you are right to appose it. I would simply tell you to appose it and not some other convoluted thing that no one accepts as true. There is no Christian who denies that Jesus died for sin. Such a person just doesn't exist and debating people as though they are one of these people only make you look like the lunatic.

You don't mince your words.

If man is told that Jesus died for sin but isn't told that Jesus may not have died for his own sin, then he isn't being told the whole truth.

There is one other possibility that just occurred to me while editing this post. It could be that you are advocating Universalism which is one of the very few doctrines that are more intellectually unhinged than Calvinism. I'm really hoping that this isn't the case.

Clete

I don't believe in Universalism.

 

[Sonnet]

...Nothing to say you can't also sign up as someone else after that, is there?...

...Those levelling charges about socks need to drop it.

 

[Clete]

Glorydaz is denying Hebrews 2:9 and 1 John 2:2 ... I’ve never said one I’ll or evil word to you JR. I’m not sure why GD is being either A) Deceptive or B) Blatantly duplicitous... but ask GD if Jesus died for all!

You know I am no Universalist! You also know that Sonnet isn’t either.

Jesus died for ALL humanity!

Jesus died for all sins and not just ours but the sins of the world! That’s 1 John 2:2 in a nutshell.

Limited Atonement is to say Jesus didn’t Die for all humanity. What the heck is wrong with this site lately!?!
[MENTION=2589]Clete[/MENTION] ... GD refuses to admit Jesus died for all, but eludes otherwise when confronted by people she hasn’t turned on... “yet”.

I may be an ornry cuss and a pain in the sock... but facts is facts!

I haven't read every post of this thread, never mind every post glorydaz has written but when I picked this conversation back up a few days ago, I couldn't even tell what the disagreement was and so I still sort of doubt that glorydaz is a Calvinist. Feels to me more like she's letting you all make whatever assumptions you want to make beyond what has actually been said. I could be wrong. We'll see.

 

[musterion]

Clete, she indeed cleared it up weeks ago. EE just didn't accept her answer.

 

[Clete]

I'm wrong, you say, yet you affirm their denial that Jesus died for all sin...but died for sin. It may just be a semantic issue.

How is that a semantic issue?

"Some" is not semantically equal to "all". "Limited" is not semantically equal to "the whole world".

Calvinist very simply do not deny that Jesus died for the sins of the elect! Limited Atonement is one of the primary tenets, Sonnet!

Paul simply said this is what we preach (1 Corinthians 15:11)...and his 'this' is vv.3-8.

What can be more powerful than telling a man that a man/God claims to have died for them to save them?

You won't get any disagreement from me as to what Paul preached and that the Pauline Gospel is THE Gospel. Jesus paid a price sufficient to pay the sin debt of every man, woman and child that has or will ever exist. If one believes that debt is canceled by virtue of Christ's death and that alone. If you do not believe, then you get to pay off your own debts. Simple.

I don't see an issue here - one does not have to mention Jesus dying for a person's sin every time Jesus is spoken of.

:up:

I was covering this base because it wasn't clear to me just what the disagreement was about.

You don't mince your words.

If man is told that Jesus died for sin but isn't told that Jesus may not have died for his own sin, then he isn't being told the whole truth.

Quite so, Calvinism is a lie and people who both understand it AND believe it are demented or otherwise mentally impaired.

I don't believe in Universalism.

:up:

Just covering another base.


Clete

 

[Clete]

glorydaz,

Let's clear this up (probably for the umpteenth time, I'd wager)....

Do you accept or reject the doctrine of Limited Atonement?


Clete

 

[glorydaz]

Sonnet

Then you'd best be careful not to sign up under another name....expecting people to not call you out for your attempted deception. There is nothing wrong with posting under another name, as I understand the rules, but to do what the Evil One has done, in an attempt to deceive, should not be tolerated by anyone on this site.

Sign up under enough names, and suddenly you have a whole crowd supporting your defamation of the Holy Scripture. You did admit you were an unbeliever. :chew:

Are you going to continue to whine or man up?

 

[glorydaz]

Paul seems to agree. "ALL THAT BELIEVE".

Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.​

I would tell a crowd of people that Jesus's death was sufficient for all, but not effectual for all. Only those who believe have forgiveness of sin. To say otherwise would be universal salvation.

That Jesus died for the sins of the world means the way has been made for salvation and forgiveness of sins. (The prison door has been opened.) Christ's death is the Grace of God, but we do not access that Grace except through faith.

Christ died for those who walk through the open door.

You are simply straining at gnats and swallowing camels. :nono:

Clete, she indeed cleared it up weeks ago. EE just didn't accept her answer.

Thank you, Musty. Someone doesn't like me.

 

[glorydaz]

glorydaz,

Let's clear this up (probably for the umpteenth time, I'd wager)....

Do you accept or reject the doctrine of Limited Atonement?


Clete

I've been accused of that, Clete. Quite loudly.

Assaulted verbally, in fact, quite adamantly with crazy memes, and loud bolded shoutings.

I was even accused of preaching DEPRAVITY, which I assume was meant Total Depravity.

My answer is that I don't know what that one person means by the term Limited Atonement, much less what the Calvinists might mean (except they believe only some are chosen for salvation). I don't believe that.

I do have some reservations about claiming certain verses mean what certain ones claim they mean, because other verses have to be ignored to make them say what those certain ones claim. That Jesus is the Saviour of all men is one of them. All men are not saved, so other verses have to be submitted in order for the whole truth to come out.

Personally, I'm sick of seeing the word of God used as deceitfully as I've been seeing of late.

And the anger that comes spewing forth when I fail to buy another's understanding.....It's a shame we have to endure this stuff. But, that's life on the web. :sigh:

 

[glorydaz]

You won't get any disagreement from me as to what Paul preached and that the Pauline Gospel is THE Gospel. Jesus paid a price sufficient to pay the sin debt of every man, woman and child that has or will ever exist. If one believes that debt is canceled by virtue of Christ's death and that alone. If you do not believe, then you get to pay off your own debts. Simple.

Clete

As you can see, Clete, that's what I've said. Sufficient for all, but only effectual for those who believe.

Sonnet wants to pretend that Paul's entire Gospel is contained in those two verses of 1 Cor. 15, and he is talking to unbelievers there. I don't agree. When I point out other critical texts, he rebukes me. I mean, I've preached the Gospel many times, and I need more than those two verses. I even quoted other verses that are a part of Paul's Gospel, but NO...not acceptable.

This entire thread has been with the motive to sow discord and attack believers.

By a professed unbeliever, no less.

 

[Evil.Eye.*{@}*]

2 Corinthians 5:15

He died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised​

This is what I’m saying and have said. I’ve explained that not believing Jesus died for all, and saying that one won’t or shouldn’t tell an unbeliever that Jesus died for them is Limited Atonement.

Calling someone reprobate and unworthy of hearing that Jesus died for them is the doctrine of reprobation. GD did both of these on this thread and agreed with AMR on the terminology. Reprobation in a subtle manner.

Savior to all, that not all accept... that’s called Free Will.
[MENTION=2589]Clete[/MENTION] ... I’m burying this hatchet and now see that [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] has harbored hatred for me and Sonnet in her heart. Every time I forgive her... she speaks wrathfully.

I’m no angel... but I lay this quarrel to rest. I forgive Glory from my heart and lay this red down.

Spoiler

 

[glorydaz]

I forgive Glory from my heart and lay this red down.

Oh the hypocrisy. :chuckle:

Yes, we all see you, little man.

Matthew 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Matthew 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,​

 

[glorydaz]

Unlike you, who uses multiple socks... yeah... I did some checking... ... [MENTION=12969]Sherman[/MENTION] verified that [MENTION=16283]Sonnet[/MENTION] has zero Socks.

Ah, typical liberal (universalist) - who brags about being mentored by an unbeliever.


You can accuse me of having multiple socks but I can't. Gotcha :rotfl:

 

[glorydaz]

Glorydaz is denying Hebrews 2:9 and 1 John 2:2 ...

I don't deny any verses....unlike YOU. You have NOTHING but false accusations.
You're an EMPTY SUIT. Toss out verses just like God's UnTruth does, and claim victory. :dunce:



Rather than compare verses, you flat out IGNORE those you don't like. Simply a loud mouth with not an ounce of support for your ramblings.

Paul tells us that "propitiation" is through faith in His blood. I realize that's an inconvenient fact, but you can't pretend the translation is wrong like your mentor claimed. There is a stipulation there that John didn't happen to mention. "I see nothing" is your motto. :chuckle:

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;​

Then you quote a verse from Hebrews, and assume tasting death means He laid down His life for every man. But you ignore verses that speak of who He did lay down His life for. Jesus makes it quite clear. Judas, the son of perdition, did not believe. Let's just ignore all that.

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

John 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.​

Oh, and let's just ignore how Christ gave Himself for His church....purchased with His own blood.

Ephesians 5:25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;​

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.​

 

[Sonnet]

As you can see, Clete, that's what I've said. Sufficient for all, but only effectual for those who believe.

Clete was agreeing with my:

Paul simply said this is what we preach (1 Corinthians 15:11)...and his 'this' is vv.3-8.

What can be more powerful than telling a man that a man/God claims to have died for them to save them?

So Clete's:

You won't get any disagreement from me as to what Paul preached and that the Pauline Gospel is THE Gospel. Jesus paid a price sufficient to pay the sin debt of every man, woman and child that has or will ever exist. If one believes that debt is canceled by virtue of Christ's death and that alone. If you do not believe, then you get to pay off your own debts. Simple.

Clete

agrees with (as far as I can see - please correct me if I'm wrong Clete) the preaching of 'Christ died for our sins' to unbelievers.

I'm being overly careful and pedantic here - but perhaps it will help to keep the peace.

 

[Sonnet]

This entire thread has been with the motive to sow discord and attack believers.

You have not shown this to be true. The discord already existed/exists. I have challenged those who preclude unbelievers from hearing the Gospel that includes the words (or equivalent), 'Christ died for our sins.'

The translation of Romans 3:25 you cite tallies with your stance but we know other translations give a slightly different perspective:

God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. (NIV)

whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. (ESV)

 

[Sonnet]

Then you quote a verse from Hebrews, and assume tasting death means He laid down His life for every man. But you ignore verses that speak of who He did lay down His life for. Jesus makes it quite clear. Judas, the son of perdition, did not believe. Let's just ignore all that.

Luke 22:19-21
And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table.

Jesus poured out His blood for Judas Iscariot.

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Now you are quoting like a Calvinist who is defending LA. Jesus, in this verse, was demonstrating His good shepherdship in contrast to that of the Pharisees (where we see them ostracizing from the synangogue he who once was blind). You are wrong to infer LA when Jesus makes a point about how he cares and the Pharisees did not.

v.13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

John 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Why did you not reference the fact that Jesus then proceeds to enjoin such folk, those who are not His sheep, to believe Him because of the miracles He has performed?

Oh, and let's just ignore how Christ gave Himself for His church....purchased with His own blood.

Ephesians 5:25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Again - more verses Calvinists cite. That Jesus died for the church does not affirm he did not die for the rest.

 

[daqq]

Does everyone already understand that hilasterion, (ιλαστηριον, rendered "propitiation"), is not a verb but a noun? It is the word used for the mercy seat upon the ark of the covenant. Perhaps the Young's Literal Bible Translation can help to clarify this whole matter and passage. The righteousness of Elohim through the faithfulness of Messiah is to/unto/toward ALL, (because it is a genuine offer unto ALL), and-moreover [it is] UPON all those believing, (because it is not yet UPON those not yet believing). However that portion of the passage is not the same in the W/H and GNT morph texts, (the KJV and the YLT read from the Textus Receptus and Byzantine text family), but since the KJV is the most popular therefore I say that perhaps the YLT, (which reads from the same text as the KJV), may shed some light:

Romans 3:21-26 YLT (Young's Literal Bible Translation)
21 And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets,
22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, --for there is no difference,
23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God--
24 being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God did set forth a mercy seat, through the faith in his blood, for the shewing forth of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the bygone sins in the forbearance of God--
26 for the shewing forth of His righteousness in the present time, for His being righteous, and declaring him righteous who is of the faith of Jesus.

"TO-UNTO-TOWARD ALL", (a genuine offer to-unto all), and-moreover, "UPON" all those believing.

The Reform-Calvinist view which was previously posted and quoted is refuted in this passage, (if reading from the T/R and Byzantine text family as above herein), for it is clearly indeed a genuine offer "to all", but that does not mean that the genuine offer is bestowed "upon all", for Paul says it is "upon all those believing".

 

[marhig]

Does everyone already understand that hilasterion, (ιλαστηριον, rendered "propitiation"), is not a verb but a noun? It is the word used for the mercy seat upon the ark of the covenant. Perhaps the Young's Literal Bible Translation can help to clarify this whole matter and passage. The righteousness of Elohim through the faithfulness of Messiah is to/unto/toward ALL, (because it is a genuine offer unto ALL), and-moreover [it is] UPON all those believing, (because it is not yet UPON those not yet believing). However that portion of the passage is not the same in the W/H and GNT morph texts, (the KJV and the YLT read from the Textus Receptus and Byzantine text family), but since the KJV is the most popular therefore I say that perhaps the YLT, (which reads from the same text as the KJV), may shed some light:

Romans 3:21-26 YLT (Young's Literal Bible Translation)
21 And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets,
22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, --for there is no difference,
23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God--
24 being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God did set forth a mercy seat, through the faith in his blood, for the shewing forth of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the bygone sins in the forbearance of God--
26 for the shewing forth of His righteousness in the present time, for His being righteous, and declaring him righteous who is of the faith of Jesus.

"TO-UNTO-TOWARD ALL", (a genuine offer to-unto all), and-moreover, "UPON" all those believing.

The Reform-Calvinist view which was previously posted and quoted is refuted in this passage, (if reading from the T/R and Byzantine text family as above herein), for it is clearly indeed a genuine offer "to all", but that does not mean that the genuine offer is bestowed "upon all", for Paul says it is "upon all those believing".

Yes daqq, and Jesus sent out his disciples and told them to go preach the gospel to every creature in every nation. Why do that if everyone doesn't have the chance of being saved? All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. But all have the chance to be forgiven of their sins past, and start being saved from this world of sin through Christ, if once they hear the gospel, they truly believe, repent, live by the will of God and then we will be truly following Jesus in baring witness to the truth.