What is the Gospel?

Danoh

New member
I can't see any scriptural reason that says the HS would not do so...except, perhaps, Romans 10:14c

"And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?"

This might be more of a way of emphasising that Christians should go and preach rather than a denial of any alternative.

Is the Spirit still leading men unto all truth they are to then add to the Scrioture, or is the era of said leading to all truth towards that truth being added to the Scripture over?

Not to mention all the tells indicating the Spirit no longer leads outside of His written word.

Endless people all claiming the Spirit has led them and yet they are not on the same page.

People claiming the Spirit is leading them and yet they get the meaning of one passage or another wrong, or misquote it, and so on.

People concluding the Spirit led them, only to find out later theirs was just one more "oops, I guess I was off on that one..."

None of that is evident in the experience of the men depicted in Scripture.

Now watch someone quote passages attempting to prove otherwise, only to actually prove by the very passages they cite that theirs was merely memory management, and that; skewed, and not "the Spirit's leading."

Never mind the types of passages people are nevertheless prone - to - having - to - look - up - to - begin - with - and - in contrast to...

Matthew 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

For the study of this subject is also in Scripture.

I wonder why that is? For that matter; why the need to study a thing out in Scripture at all?

Admittedly, this subject is a touchy one for many.

Many being the Charismatic they deny being.

Every group out there is chockful of "Spirit led" types.

I used to be one myself. Til I actually took a look at what I was believing was the reality.

Thank you to passages like Isaiah 8:20, and 2 Timothy 3:16, 17.

This is a subject one can be study out in...the Word of Truth.

How do I know?

Due to what the Apostle Paul had been led to write down shortly before he finally put his own pen down and went off to meet our Creator....

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Apparantly that replaced the earlier process described in 1 Cor. 13; in Eph. 4, and so on.

Nevertheless, Rom. 14:5.
 

Danoh

New member
Romans 10:19-20
Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, “I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.” And Isaiah boldly says,“I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.”

That is actually speaking of these people...

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 1:30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God. 1:35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples; 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

1:40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Romans 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Earlier Paul had identified two Israel's within his nation...

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The children of the promise were that foolish nation within there nation.

Luke 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

In the following, note the contrast between the blind man; viewed as one who did not seek after God by those of his nation who were actually the ones who did not seek after God.

Which of the two "was (the Lord) found of"?

John 9:28 Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples. 9:29 We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is. 9:30 The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes. 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. 9:32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind. 9:33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing. 9:34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out. 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? 9:36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? 9:37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

In short, the foolish nation Paul was referring to was the Believing Remnant of Israel.

Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Nevertheless, Rom. 14:5.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Romans 10:19-20
Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, “I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.” And Isaiah boldly says,“I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.”

What's your point?
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Jerry S wrote:
That would have happened in the past if Israel would not have remained in unbelief concerning the Lord Jesus but it will happen in the future.



No, it did happen to any in Israel who believed and it shows that the mission to the nations was there all along, and that those among the nations who believe also become missionaries.

As usual, D'ism gages everything by race, not by belief. Not so the NT.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Jerry S wrote:
That would have happened in the past if Israel would not have remained in unbelief concerning the Lord Jesus but it will happen in the future.



No, it did happen to any in Israel who believed and it shows that the mission to the nations was there all along, and that those among the nations who believe also become missionaries.

As usual, D'ism gages everything by race, not by belief. Not so the NT.

It is obvious to anyone who will use their brain that this prophecy has not yet occurred:

"And I will bring them (Israel), and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing...In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you" (Zech.8:8,13,23).​

Of course the old dictum is true, "Take to preterism and it will make you stupid."
 

meshak

BANNED
Banned
Please cut and paste anything you say
that I have said that is not true with your proof
that it is not true and we will discuss it.

Thank you.

No one will take seriously with your method of communication.

We can talk when you change your method.

blessings.
 

Derf

Well-known member
I can't see any scriptural reason that says the HS would not do so...except, perhaps, Romans 10:14c

"And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?"

This might be more of a way of emphasising that Christians should go and preach rather than a denial of any alternative.

I don't deny alternatives may exist, but what would be His purpose in using such, if He's provided a different method of talking to them (preaching)? I can give you one possible answer: if there is no preacher. If a nation's leaders prevent the gospel from reaching the people through preachers, maybe the Holy Spirit finds a different way--like dreams for instance.

But the normative is through preaching. If, then, one hears through preaching, and rejects or ignores the words from the Holy Spirit, do you think the Spirit will be somehow required to find a different way?

And what does this have to do with your thread?
 

Sonnet

New member
I don't deny alternatives may exist, but what would be His purpose in using such, if He's provided a different method of talking to them (preaching)? I can give you one possible answer: if there is no preacher. If a nation's leaders prevent the gospel from reaching the people through preachers, maybe the Holy Spirit finds a different way--like dreams for instance.

Ok.


But the normative is through preaching. If, then, one hears through preaching, and rejects or ignores the words from the Holy Spirit, do you think the Spirit will be somehow required to find a different way?

No.

And what does this have to do with your thread?

It's not related specifically.
 

Sonnet

New member
TWO-Fold Purpose of God: Prophecy and Mystery.

Prophecy, or that which was Prophesied by the Law and the Prophets since the world began, concerning a redeemed Israel, as His kingdom of Priests and an holy Nation over the Nations of the Earth one day.

Temporarily placed on hold by God, as planned by Him.

Ripped off at some point afterwards, by the RCC.

Mystery, or that which was kept since the world began, until Paul, and concerns a New Creature: the Body of Christ, over the Heavenly host one day.

Still ongoing until the fullness of this Gentile salvation be come in.

Distorted out of proportion by Reformed Theology.

Said distortion really went into full swing near the end of the 1st Century and into the 2nd and 3rd (so called "church fathers) and so on.

Rom. 14:5; 5:7,8.

You are referring to replacement theology...and so the debate goes on.
 

Sonnet

New member
Not to mention all the tells indicating the Spirit no longer leads outside of His written word.

I see nothing that explicitly says so.

Endless people all claiming the Spirit has led them and yet they are not on the same page.

People claiming the Spirit is leading them and yet they get the meaning of one passage or another wrong, or misquote it, and so on.

People concluding the Spirit led them, only to find out later theirs was just one more "oops, I guess I was off on that one..."

And yet, even if we assume that the HS isn't speaking directly, Christianity remians in schism does it not? Not even the Gospel escapes the division.

I wish it were not so.

Now watch someone quote passages attempting to prove otherwise, only to actually prove by the very passages they cite that theirs was merely memory management, and that; skewed, and not "the Spirit's leading."

Never mind the types of passages people are nevertheless prone - to - having - to - look - up - to - begin - with - and - in contrast to...

Matthew 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

For the study of this subject is also in Scripture.

I wonder why that is? For that matter; why the need to study a thing out in Scripture at all?

Admittedly, this subject is a touchy one for many.

Many being the Charismatic they deny being.

Every group out there is chockful of "Spirit led" types.

I used to be one myself. Til I actually took a look at what I was believing was the reality.

Thank you to passages like Isaiah 8:20, and 2 Timothy 3:16, 17.

Nothing explict there, I'd say.

This is a subject one can be study out in...the Word of Truth.

How do I know?

Due to what the Apostle Paul had been led to write down shortly before he finally put his own pen down and went off to meet our Creator....

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Apparantly that replaced the earlier process described in 1 Cor. 13; in Eph. 4, and so on.

Nevertheless, Rom. 14:5.

I am unclear as to why you have cited 1 Cor 13 and Eph 4.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Replacement Theology Canard

Replacement Theology Canard

You are referring to replacement theology...and so the debate goes on.
As soon as someone uses "Replacement Theology" when discussing covenantalism, it is a signal they don't know what they are talking about.

Covenantalists reject "replacement theology", and I don't think anyone can find a single covenantalist that would accept the term. Covenantalists follow grafted theology. One vine: Christ, one Israel, the people of God. From Ephesians 2:15, Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

The Gentiles are to be offered seats in the kingdom feast beside Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; see Mt. 8:11-12. These are branches grafted on the Vine, Rom.11:17. The promise is given to believers, without respect (intrinsically) to heritage.

Persons tossing out the "replacement theology" term say so because they have already decided to keep the two distinct. Thus, you will read them saying, "Covenantalists have taken over the promises made to Israel". Error! They should be saying "Covenantalists have joined the true Israel, Christ, along with Old Testament believers, who were "of Israel"." (Romans 9:6).

Contrary to Paul's clear teachings, the persons who toss out "replacement theology" do not believe Christ is the goal of the law (Romans 10:4), that in Him it is finished. These same persons think the goals of the Old Testament have not been accomplished, that the Temple is returning, and that God has two intentions for different "peoples". Sigh.

Recently I was asked a question asking whether “covenant theology” is so-called “replacement theology.” Those dispensational critics of Reformed covenant theology who accuse it of teaching that the New Covenant church has “replaced” Israel do not understand historic Reformed covenant theology. They are imputing to Reformed theology a way of thinking about redemptive history that has more in common with dispensationalism than it does with Reformed theology.

First, the very category of “replacement” is foreign to Reformed theology because it assumes a dispensational, Israeleo-centric way of thinking. It assumes that the temporary, national people was, in fact, intended to be the permanent arrangement. Such a way of thinking is contrary to the promise in Gen. 3:15. The promise was that there would be a Savior. The national people was only a means to that end, not an end in itself. According to Paul in Ephesians 2:11-22, in Christ the dividing wall has been destroyed. It cannot be rebuilt. The two peoples (Jews and Gentiles) have been made one in Christ. Among those who are united to Christ by grace alone, through faith alone, there is no Jew nor Gentile (Rom. 10:12; Gal. 3:28; Col. 3:11).

At least some forms of dispensationalism have suggested that God intended the national covenant with Israel to be permanent. According to Reformed theology, the Mosaic covenant was never intended to be permanent. According to Galatians 3 (and chapter 4), the Mosaic covenant was a codicil to the Abrahamic covenant. A codicil is added to an existing document. It doesn’t replace the existing document. Dispensationalism reverses things. It makes the Abrahamic covenant a codicil to the Mosaic. Hebrews 3 says that Moses was a worker in Jesus’ house. Dispensationalism makes Jesus a worker in Moses’ house.

Second, with respect to salvation, Reformed covenant theology does not juxtapose Israel and the church. For Reformed theology, the church has always been the Israel of God and the Israel of God has always been the church. Reformed covenant theology distinguishes the old and new covenants (2 Cor. 3; Heb. 7-10). It recognizes that the church was temporarily administered through a typological, national people, but the church has existed since Adam, Noah, and Abraham; and it existed under Moses and David; and it exists under Christ.

Third, the church has always been one, under various administrations, under types, shadows, and now under the reality in Christ, because the object of faith has always been one. Jesus the Messiah was the object of faith of the typological church (Heb. 11; Luke 24; 2 Cor. 3), and he remains the object of faith.

Fourth, despite the abrogation of the national covenant by the obedience, death, and resurrection of Christ (Col. 2:14), the NT church has not “replaced” the Jews. Paul says that God “grafted” the Gentiles into the people of God. Grafting is not replacement, it is addition.

It has been widely held by Reformed theologians that there will be a great conversion of Jews. Some call this “anti-Semitism.” This isn’t anti-Semitism, it is Christianity. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6). The alternative to Jesus’ exclusivist claim is universalism, which is nothing less than an assault on the person and finished work of Christ. Other Reformed writers understand the promises in Rom. 11 to refer only to the salvation of all the elect (Rom. 2:28) rather than to a future conversion of Jews. In any event, Reformed theology is not anti-semitic. We have always hoped and prayed for the salvation, in Christ, sola gratia et sola fide, of all of God’s elect, Jew and Gentile alike.


AMR
 
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