Theology Club: What is Open Theism?

[Lighthouse]

Time is not spatial, so Open Theists do not say God is 'in' time. Rather, it is an aspect of His personal experience since will, intellect, emotion, relationship, fellowship, communication, etc. presupposes duration, sequence, succession (time). Time is a concept, not a thing, not a place, not created, etc.

In other words: Time is not a dimension; it's not physical.

 

[Paulos]

I'd really like to see these scriptures that state God is outside of time, or that God is infinite.

The actual infinity of God in every respect is Catholic dogma. In accordance with the Holy Bible (Ps 147:5; Isa. 57:15; Rom. 1:20; etc) and unanimous tradition, the Vatican Council at its Third Session (cap. i) declared God to be almighty, eternal, immense, incomprehensible, infinite in intellect and will and every perfection, really and essentially distinct from the world, infinitely blessed in Himself and through Himself, and inexpressibly above all things that can exist and be thought of besides Him. The infinity of God can also be proved from philosophy. God is the self-existing, uncreated Being whose entire explanation must be in Himself, in Whom there can be no trace of chance; but it would be mere chance if God possessed only a finite degree of perfection, for however high that degree might be, everything in the uncreated Being — His perfections, His individuality, His personality — admit the possibility of His possessing a still higher degree of entirety. From outside Himself, God cannot be limited, because, being uncreated, He is absolutely independent of external causes and conditions. Limitation would be chance; the more so because we can maintain not only that any given finite degree of perfection may be surpassed, but also, in a positive way, that an infinite being is possible. Moreover, if God were finite, the existence of other gods, His equals or even His superiors in perfection would be possible, and it would be mere chance if they did not exist. Of such gods, no trace can be found, while on the other hand, God's infinity is suggested by various data of experience, and in particular by our unbounded longing after knowledge and happiness. The more man a man is, and the more he follows his best thoughts and impulses, the less he is satisfied with merely finite cognitions and pleasures. That the essential cravings of our nature are not deceptive, is demonstrated at once by experience and speculation.

From the infinity of God it is easy to deduce all His perfections: His unity, simplicity, immutability, etc., though these may be proved also by other means. Many of God's attributes are nothing else than His infinity in a particular respect, e.g. His omnipotence is but the infinity of His power; His omniscience, the infinity of His knowledge. Whatever is known to be a pure unalloyed perfection, must be an attribute of God on account of His infinity...​

Read more at the source: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08004a.htm

 

[godrulz]

In other words: Time is not a dimension; it's not physical.

Yes, Einstein is wrong. Measures and perceptions of time/gravity, etc. may have a physical element, but the philosophical, essential nature of time as duration does not (it is an aspect of the eternal God's existence, uncreated).

 

[Dialogos]

I'm afraid that you don't get to have it both ways Godrulz.

If time is an aspect of God's experience, then it should not be affected in the least bit by physical forces of creation (like gravity or laws of acceleration). If time is an aspect of God's experience then not only is not only is Einstein wrong but all the experimental data that strongly supports the phenomenon of time dilation are wrong and it is incumbent upon the open view to come up with another plausible explanation or to admit that the OV is contrary to science on this point.

That's really the rub, the OV is on the wrong end of the clear teaching of scripture, the wrong end of most accepted scientific understanding of time and on the wrong end of logic and rationality when it comes to God's relationship to time.

 

[Lighthouse]

The actual infinity of God in every respect is Catholic dogma. In accordance with the Holy Bible (Ps 147:5; Isa. 57:15; Rom. 1:20; etc) and unanimous tradition, the Vatican Council at its Third Session (cap. i) declared God to be almighty, eternal, immense, incomprehensible, infinite in intellect and will and every perfection, really and essentially distinct from the world, infinitely blessed in Himself and through Himself, and inexpressibly above all things that can exist and be thought of besides Him. The infinity of God can also be proved from philosophy. God is the self-existing, uncreated Being whose entire explanation must be in Himself, in Whom there can be no trace of chance; but it would be mere chance if God possessed only a finite degree of perfection, for however high that degree might be, everything in the uncreated Being — His perfections, His individuality, His personality — admit the possibility of His possessing a still higher degree of entirety. From outside Himself, God cannot be limited, because, being uncreated, He is absolutely independent of external causes and conditions. Limitation would be chance; the more so because we can maintain not only that any given finite degree of perfection may be surpassed, but also, in a positive way, that an infinite being is possible. Moreover, if God were finite, the existence of other gods, His equals or even His superiors in perfection would be possible, and it would be mere chance if they did not exist. Of such gods, no trace can be found, while on the other hand, God's infinity is suggested by various data of experience, and in particular by our unbounded longing after knowledge and happiness. The more man a man is, and the more he follows his best thoughts and impulses, the less he is satisfied with merely finite cognitions and pleasures. That the essential cravings of our nature are not deceptive, is demonstrated at once by experience and speculation.

From the infinity of God it is easy to deduce all His perfections: His unity, simplicity, immutability, etc., though these may be proved also by other means. Many of God's attributes are nothing else than His infinity in a particular respect, e.g. His omnipotence is but the infinity of His power; His omniscience, the infinity of His knowledge. Whatever is known to be a pure unalloyed perfection, must be an attribute of God on account of His infinity...​

Read more at the source: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08004a.htm

In the verses provided, the only one that says anything about infinite is in regard to God's understanding, not His presence, form or existence. The next verse states that He inhabits eternity, which says nothing regarding infinite existence. And the third refers to His power as eternal, which, again, means nothing toward being infinite.

Looks like Catholic eisegesis fails again.

I'm afraid that you don't get to have it both ways Godrulz.

If time is an aspect of God's experience, then it should not be affected in the least bit by physical forces of creation (like gravity or laws of acceleration).

So it's up to you to show that time is affected by these things. So far all we have are theories that it would, or should be, but absolutely no evidence or proof that such theories are fact.

If time is an aspect of God's experience then not only is not only is Einstein wrong but all the experimental data that strongly supports the phenomenon of time dilation are wrong and it is incumbent upon the open view to come up with another plausible explanation or to admit that the OV is contrary to science on this point.

Even science admits there are other possible explanations.

But, hey, if you want to give us an example so we can offer a rebuttal, please do so.

That's really the rub, the OV is on the wrong end of the clear teaching of scripture, the wrong end of most accepted scientific understanding of time and on the wrong end of logic and rationality when it comes to God's relationship to time.

The wrong end of the clear teaching of Scripture? You have failed to show this to be the case. You have also offered nothing regarding science to test. And you have also failed to show the OV opposed to logic and rationality. And you haven't offered anything regarding God's relationship to time.

 

[DFT_Dave]

The actual infinity of God in every respect is Catholic dogma. In accordance with the Holy Bible (Ps 147:5; Isa. 57:15; Rom. 1:20; etc) and unanimous tradition, the Vatican Council at its Third Session (cap. i) declared God to be almighty, eternal, immense, incomprehensible, infinite in intellect and will and every perfection, really and essentially distinct from the world, infinitely blessed in Himself and through Himself, and inexpressibly above all things that can exist and be thought of besides Him. The infinity of God can also be proved from philosophy. God is the self-existing, uncreated Being whose entire explanation must be in Himself, in Whom there can be no trace of chance; but it would be mere chance if God possessed only a finite degree of perfection, for however high that degree might be, everything in the uncreated Being — His perfections, His individuality, His personality — admit the possibility of His possessing a still higher degree of entirety. From outside Himself, God cannot be limited, because, being uncreated, He is absolutely independent of external causes and conditions. Limitation would be chance; the more so because we can maintain not only that any given finite degree of perfection may be surpassed, but also, in a positive way, that an infinite being is possible. Moreover, if God were finite, the existence of other gods, His equals or even His superiors in perfection would be possible, and it would be mere chance if they did not exist. Of such gods, no trace can be found, while on the other hand, God's infinity is suggested by various data of experience, and in particular by our unbounded longing after knowledge and happiness. The more man a man is, and the more he follows his best thoughts and impulses, the less he is satisfied with merely finite cognitions and pleasures. That the essential cravings of our nature are not deceptive, is demonstrated at once by experience and speculation.

From the infinity of God it is easy to deduce all His perfections: His unity, simplicity, immutability, etc., though these may be proved also by other means. Many of God's attributes are nothing else than His infinity in a particular respect, e.g. His omnipotence is but the infinity of His power; His omniscience, the infinity of His knowledge. Whatever is known to be a pure unalloyed perfection, must be an attribute of God on account of His infinity...​

Read more at the source: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08004a.htm

If God's infinity is fully "actualized" he does everything all at once.

This is not the God of the Bible, who, in his past created the world, died on the cross, and will, in his future and ours, judge the World.

It's that simple, that clear, accept for the all those who want to perpetuate a belief in the God of philosophy. I prefer the Bible alone, without mixture.

--Dave

 

[Paulos]

If God's infinity is fully "actualized" he does everything all at once.

Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past.

2 Peter 3:8
With the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.​

This is not the God of the Bible, who, in his past created the world, died on the cross, and will, in his future and ours, judge the World.

It's that simple, that clear, accept for the all those who want to perpetuate a belief in the God of philosophy. I prefer the Bible alone, without mixture.

God "inhabits eternity" (Isaiah 57:15 ) and "His understanding is infinite" (Psalm 147:5). That isn't philosophy, it's scripture.

 

[DFT_Dave]

Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past.

2 Peter 3:8
With the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.​

God "inhabits eternity" (Isaiah 57:15 ) and "His understanding is infinite" (Psalm 147:5). That isn't philosophy, it's scripture.

Years pass for us and for God just like a day passes for both God and us as well.

The difference is a thousand years for us is like a day for God. This scripture does not say that we have days and years but God has no days or years.

The other verses must be understood in the Biblical context of God's past when he existence before he created the world and his future when he will judge the world. God's eternity is that he has no beginning and will have no end.

God did not leave anything to chance, he left things to consequences. If we believe in Christ we will have eternal life, and that would not be a timeless eternal life. If we do not believe in Christ we will perish. "Choice", God has given us choice, and you and the perfect Being of philosophy that you follow hate choice/free will.

The control freaks of the world always want to control as much as they can and then justify it with the illusion of either a God who is the ultimate control freak, ordains--or is in everything, or no God at all.

--Dave

 

[Paulos]

Einstein is wrong.

There's a Nobel Prize in Physics just sitting there waiting for you if you can prove it.

You can prove it, can't you?

 

[Dialogos]

Dave, you quoted a portion of an article written by Greg Ganssle

The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
The claim that God is timeless is a denial of the claim that God is temporal. First, God exists, but does not exist at any temporal location. Rather than holding that God is everlastingly eternal, and, therefore, he exists at each time, this position is that God exists but he does not exist at any time at all. God is beyond time altogether. It could be said that although God does not exist at any time God exists at eternity. That is, eternity can be seen as a non-temporal location as any point within time is a temporal location. Second, it is thought that God does not experience temporal succession. God’s relation to each event in a temporal sequence is the same as his relation to any other event.*

"God may be thought of as “timeless,” which means that God exists outside of time, unconstrained by the process of cause and effect."

First, you'll have to help me find the second part since you are quoting it out of context and out of sequence.
Second, I don't know what help you think this article is to the discussion.
There are a number of views on what “timelessness” means to God. For most of us, we see “timeless” as defined as eternal. You may object but Websters dictionary does not.

2
a*:*having no beginning or end*:*eternal
b*:*not restricted to a particular time or date*<the*timeless themes of love, solitude, joy, and nature —*Writer>
3
:*not affected by time

While you appear to be trying very hard to pigeon whole all the opinions contrary to the open view into a single box so that you can conveniently discard that box, the reality is that there are a number of theories that accommodate God's omniscience of the future. They range from purely atemporal theories to theories of omnitemporality. There are some who argue that God has his own temporality that is independent of our own and some who argue that God is free form temporality altogether. In any event, many of them come together to argue that God is not constrained by time as we are and that God is consequently able to know the future.

There are significant problems to the notion that God shares the same temporal experience that we do and unfortunately this notion must be pressuposed by the OV in order to be logical.

 

[DFT_Dave]

Dave, you quoted a portion of an article written by Greg Ganssle

First, you'll have to help me find the second part since you are quoting it out of context and out of sequence.

Second, I don't know what help you think this article is to the discussion.

There are a number of views on what “timelessness” means to God. For most of us, we see “timeless” as defined as eternal. You may object but Websters dictionary does not.

While you appear to be trying very hard to pigeon whole all the opinions contrary to the open view into a single box so that you can conveniently discard that box, the reality is that there are a number of theories that accommodate God's omniscience of the future. They range from purely atemporal theories to theories of omnitemporality. There are some who argue that God has his own temporality that is independent of our own and some who argue that God is free form temporality altogether. In any event, many of them come together to argue that God is not constrained by time as we are and that God is consequently able to know the future.

There are significant problems to the notion that God shares the same temporal experience that we do and unfortunately this notion must be pressuposed by the OV in order to be logical.

For God to know the future of human history he would have had to create it.

As humans we are finite, which means we cannot live both in the past and the future, we can only live in the present.

If God creates all of human history, even every thought, then obviously he will know all of it.

If God has created all of it then he is responsible for all that happens including evil, not us, and we are not free.

If I said you were "brainless" I would not mean you were merely free from the constraints of rational thinking.

--Dave

 

[Dialogos]

For God to know the future of human history he would have had to create it.

First, as a Calvinist, I don't have any problem with the notion that all of history, past, present and future is in some way decreed by God. Its a little more complex than that, accounting for differences in God's active will and God's passive will and the choices of people, but all in all, the fact that God decrees all of history past, present and future isn't really a problem for me.

As humans we are finite, which means we cannot live both in the past and the future, we can only live in the present.

I agree.

Incidentally, this is really the OV problem with God. By your own definition here, God must also be finite as well since the OV argues that He cannot live both int he past and the future, He can only live in the present.

If God creates all of human history, even every thought, then obviously he will know all of it.

If God has created all of it then he is responsible for all that happens including evil, not us, and we are not free.

Nope.

If you like, I can take you through the problem of evil but my hunch is that you really don't need me to. What you may need is to realize that the OV isn't free from the problem of evil anymore than the Calvinist or the Arminian.

The Calvinist says that God decrees to permit some evil actions in the world but has a purpose that works for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.
The Arminian says that God foresees some evil in the world but has a purpose that works for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.
The OV says that God didn't have a clue that said evil would happen, but was able to stop it, yet didn't. Somehow, because God is still all poweful even if He can't know the future, God will make all things work together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.

So how again does the OV escape the philosophical demands of the problem of evil?

The OV still has to contend with the fact that God could have stopped evil but didn't.

The only way to avoid the so called problem of evil would be to strip God of all sovereignty and omnipotence so we could say that God didn't know and couldn't do anything about it anyway.

Otherwise you and I are both stuck on the same side of the problem of evil and I'm pretty sure that we will arive at the same basic answer.

God permits evil, but has a plan and a purpose whereby justice is accomplished.

If I said you were "brainless" I would not mean you were merely free from the constraints of rational thinking.

If you said that the bible contained "timeless" truths you would not be saying that those truths are completely outside of time, now would you?

 

[DFT_Dave]

First, as a Calvinist, I don't have any problem with the notion that all of history, past, present and future is in some way decreed by God. Its a little more complex than that, accounting for differences in God's active will and God's passive will and the choices of people, but all in all, the fact that God decrees all of history past, present and future isn't really a problem for me.

I agree.

Incidentally, this is really the OV problem with God. By your own definition here, God must also be finite as well since the OV argues that He cannot live both int he past and the future, He can only live in the present.

Nope.

If you like, I can take you through the problem of evil but my hunch is that you really don't need me to. What you may need is to realize that the OV isn't free from the problem of evil anymore than the Calvinist or the Arminian.

The Calvinist says that God decrees to permit some evil actions in the world but has a purpose that works for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.

The Arminian says that God foresees some evil in the world but has a purpose that works for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.

The OV says that God didn't have a clue that said evil would happen, but was able to stop it, yet didn't. Somehow, because God is still all poweful even if He can't know the future, God will make all things work together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.

So how again does the OV escape the philosophical demands of the problem of evil?

The OV still has to contend with the fact that God could have stopped evil but didn't.

The only way to avoid the so called problem of evil would be to strip God of all sovereignty and omnipotence so we could say that God didn't know and couldn't do anything about it anyway.

Otherwise you and I are both stuck on the same side of the problem of evil and I'm pretty sure that we will arive at the same basic answer.

God permits evil, but has a plan and a purpose whereby justice is accomplished.

If you said that the bible contained "timeless" truths you would not be saying that those truths are completely outside of time, now would you?

To say that God ordained the evil in the world and is the ultimate cause for it is alot different than saying God did not ordain the evil in the world and is not the ultimate cause for it.

Calvinism is the ordaining of "all" not "some" of the evil in the world and those who love him were choosen to love him by him, not by any choice of their own.

Calvinism strips away all personal responsibility and portrays God as a Timeless Tyrant who authors the evil in the world and then blames it on the ones he preordained to do it--very sadistic don't you think? I would hardly call that justice.

OV agrees with scripture, "omnipotent" God will destroy evil doers and give eternal life to those who believe in Christ.

A timeless truth is not the same thing as a timeless act. God's love is timeless his creation of the world not, it's in his past.

--Dave

 

[Dialogos]

Calvinism is the ordaining of "all" not "some" of the evil in the world and those who love him were choose to love him by him, not by any choice of their own.

Most Calvinists would not agree that God "ordained" the fall. There are some supralapsarians who would argue this but there are a fair amount of Infralapsarians and true Amyraldians who argue that God permitted the fall.

You believe that God permitted the fall, don't you? Or do you also deny the omnipotence of God?

Calvinism strips away all personal responsibility and portrays God as a Timeless Tyrant who authors the evil in the world and then blames it on the ones he preordained to do it--very sadistic don't you think?

Calvinism does no such thing. Calvinism maintains that God is sovereign and that man is responsible. Perhaps you have heard of compatibilism? Eve didn't take the fruit because she had to, she took the fruit because she wanted to. Adam didn't bite the fruit because he had to, he bit the fruit because he wanted to. People don't get tossed into hell begging God for His mercy they march willingly into hell cursing God the whole way. People make choices, Calvinism doesn't erase that truth.

You've made the illogical jump from God's being sovereign over a world that contains evil to God being the author of evil.

I would hardly call that justice.

God doesn't care what you call it. You are the clay, He is the potter.

OV agrees with scripture, "omnipotent" God will destroy evil doers and give eternal life to those who believe in Christ.

Wasn't God omnipotent in the Garden? Couldn't God have destroyed the serpent before it tempted Eve? Couldn't He have destroyed the fruit before she bit? Couldn't He have sent an eagle to pluck the fruit right out of Adam's hand before he ate?

Don't pretend that we Calvinists are the only ones who have to contend with the problem of evil.

A timeless truth is not the same thing as a timeless act.

A timeless God is not the same thing as a timeless act.

 

[Dialogos]

In the verses provided, the only one that says anything about infinite is in regard to God's understanding, not His presence, form or existence.

So you now agree that God's understanding is infinite then right? Just as a matter of clarification, just how far into the future is infinity?

The next verse states that He inhabits eternity, which says nothing regarding infinite existence.

How do you explain that God inhabiting a place (or state of being) in which He does not exist?

Next you'll be arguing that you inhabit a home you don't exist in.

And the third refers to His power as eternal, which, again, means nothing toward being infinite.

Are you going to argue that eternal power is finite? I hope not, only a moron would argue that.

Even science admits there are other possible explanations.

Lets have one.

But, hey, if you want to give us an example so we can offer a rebuttal, please do so.

Sure, atomic clocks at higher elevations run faster than atomic clocks at lower elevations (atomic clocks are the most reliable clocks on earth). This isn't theoretical, its been demonstrated time and time again. GPS satellites have to account for time dilation in order to work accurately because they don't run at the same speed as accurately running clocks on the surface of the earth.
We've flown caesium atomic clocks around the world and compared how much time was gained or lost compared to caesium atomic clocks on earth. Time dilation was confirmed and measured in each case.

Virtually no one in the scientific community denies time dilation it has been proven again and again.

The wrong end of the clear teaching of Scripture?

Yup.

Scriptures says that God is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end (Rev 1:8) not that He was the Alpha, and will some day be the Omega.

He is called the Eternal God not the temporal God in scripture (Genesis 21:33, Deuteronomy 33:27 and Romans 16:26).

And you have also failed to show the OV opposed to logic and rationality.

You've done that for me, arguing against an infinite God in favor of a finite God who despite being finite has infinite understanding, eternal power and an eternal habitation.

 

[Lighthouse]

Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past.

2 Peter 3:8
With the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.​

​

Somebody doesn't understand perspective.

God "inhabits eternity" (Isaiah 57:15 ) and "His understanding is infinite" (Psalm 147:5). That isn't philosophy, it's scripture.

Eternity and infinity are not the same thing.:nono:

So you now agree that God's understanding is infinite then right? Just as a matter of clarification, just how far into the future is infinity?

:doh:

Do yo not know what a figure of speech is? Understanding is not a tangible thing; to say intangible things, such as concepts, are infinite does not mean those who hold them are as well. In fact, a concept cannot be physically infinite, for it is not a physical thing.

How do you explain that God inhabiting a place (or state of being) in which He does not exist?

Eternity and infinity are not the same thing.

Next you'll be arguing that you inhabit a home you don't exist in.

I'll leave the insistence of falsehoods to you.

Are you going to argue that eternal power is finite? I hope not, only a moron would argue that.

Power, like understanding, is not physical. It can be infinite without being physically so.

Lets have one.

Sure, atomic clocks at higher elevations run faster than atomic clocks at lower elevations (atomic clocks are the most reliable clocks on earth). This isn't theoretical, its been demonstrated time and time again. GPS satellites have to account for time dilation in order to work accurately because they don't run at the same speed as accurately running clocks on the surface of the earth.
We've flown caesium atomic clocks around the world and compared how much time was gained or lost compared to caesium atomic clocks on earth. Time dilation was confirmed and measured in each case.

Your atrocious grammar aside, gravity and velocity affect the atoms, thus the clocks are affected. A clock suffering the effects of these things does not equate to time suffering said effects.

Virtually no one in the scientific community denies time dilation it has been proven again and again.

The only things that have been proves are theories about what would happen if time dilation were true, and in each case there are other viable explanations; it is not necessary for time dilation to be true for these other things to be true.

Yup.

Scriptures says that God is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end (Rev 1:8) not that He was the Alpha, and will some day be the Omega.

The OV doesn't deny this. Thought it might disagree with your assumption of what it means.

He is called the Eternal God not the temporal God in scripture (Genesis 21:33, Deuteronomy 33:27 and Romans 16:26).

Eternity is a temporal state.

You've done that for me, arguing against an infinite God in favor of a finite God who despite being finite has infinite understanding, eternal power and an eternal habitation.

You have made illogical assumptions as to the meaning of certain words.

 

[DFT_Dave]

Most Calvinists would not agree that God "ordained" the fall. There are some supralapsarians who would argue this but there are a fair amount of Infralapsarians and true Amyraldians who argue that God permitted the fall.

You believe that God permitted the fall, don't you? Or do you also deny the omnipotence of God?

Calvinism does no such thing. Calvinism maintains that God is sovereign and that man is responsible. Perhaps you have heard of compatibilism? Eve didn't take the fruit because she had to, she took the fruit because she wanted to. Adam didn't bite the fruit because he had to, he bit the fruit because he wanted to. People don't get tossed into hell begging God for His mercy they march willingly into hell cursing God the whole way. People make choices, Calvinism doesn't erase that truth.

You've made the illogical jump from God's being sovereign over a world that contains evil to God being the author of evil.

God doesn't care what you call it. You are the clay, He is the potter.

Wasn't God omnipotent in the Garden? Couldn't God have destroyed the serpent before it tempted Eve? Couldn't He have destroyed the fruit before she bit? Couldn't He have sent an eagle to pluck the fruit right out of Adam's hand before he ate?

Don't pretend that we Calvinists are the only ones who have to contend with the problem of evil.

A timeless God is not the same thing as a timeless act.

The question is, when did God know the fall would happen?

The day before it happened? A week before it happened?

What would you say?

Also, did God "see" it happen or did God ordain it to happen?

Did God see it and then ordain it or did God ordain it and then see it happen?

The OV answer is that God neither saw the fall before it happened nor ordained it to happen.

We say God knew it potentially could happen but it was not planned nor certain to happen.

With out any accusations just say how you see it, how do you explain it?

--Dave

 

[Dialogos]

Somebody doesn't understand perspective.

That would be you... since you don't seem to get that God having a different perspective on time necessitates that God experience time differently than we do.

When was the last time you said that a thousand years went by like yesterday?

Eternity and infinity are not the same thing.:nono:

Really??

Which line is longer, the eternal line or the infinite line?

:dunce:

Your atrocious grammar aside, gravity and velocity affect the atoms, thus the clocks are affected. A clock suffering the effects of these things does not equate to time suffering said effects.

Please Lighthouse, everyone has some level of ignorance about some things but do you really have to put yours on parade?

In each of the examples I provided above, the results were entirely consistent with calculations based on the theory of relativity which does not theorize time as a constant, but as a variable.

All of the examples of time dilation are consistent with the mathematical models developed by Einstein and refined by theoreticians based on theories of general relativity.

The only things that have been proves are theories about what would happen if time dilation were true, and in each case there are other viable explanations; it is not necessary for time dilation to be true for these other things to be true.

You really are talking from ignorance here Lighthouse.

Do yourself a favor, read the article linked below and learn something about how we use the theory of general relativity to account for time dilation every day.
http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html

Now, I am sure that universities around the world would be more than happy to review Lighthouses theory of non-relativity. I, for one, won't be holding my breath.

:chuckle:

 

[Dialogos]

The question is, when did God know the fall would happen?

I believe that He knew it before the creation of the world. I speak figuratively here, of course, since before is a temporal marker.

Also, did God "see" it happen or did God ordain it to happen?

God decreed to permit the fall. My view and the Arminian view on this are only slightly different.

Did God see it and then ordain it or did God ordain it and then see it happen?

You are asking questions about matters that scripture does not give us concrete answers to. As such, the answers are speculative and conjectural.

It is really somewhat foolish for me to hypothesize about the Ordo Solutis, even though theologians have been doing just that for centuries. I would say that Ephesians 1:11 is a good cornerstone passage to help us understand God's purpose in the context of the fall of man. Personally, I would say that God created a world in which the fall was a possibility and then decreed to permit the fall.

The OV answer is that God neither saw the fall before it happened nor ordained it to happen.

Right, so the key question for the OV folks is, did God see it in well enough in advance to stop it?

Clearly the answer is yes.

 

[DFT_Dave]

I believe that He knew it before the creation of the world. I speak figuratively here, of course, since before is a temporal marker.

God decreed to permit the fall. My view and the Arminian view on this are only slightly different.

You are asking questions about matters that scripture does not give us concrete answers to. As such, the answers are speculative and conjectural.

It is really somewhat foolish for me to hypothesize about the Ordo Solutis, even though theologians have been doing just that for centuries. I would say that Ephesians 1:11 is a good cornerstone passage to help us understand God's purpose in the context of the fall of man. Personally, I would say that God created a world in which the fall was a possibility and then decreed to permit the fall.

Right, so the key question for the OV folks is, did God see it in well enough in advance to stop it?

Clearly the answer is yes.

If you, if even figuratively, believe that God knew the fall would occur before he created the world then it seems you at least believe there is a "before" for God which, as I'm sure you know, is an aspect of time in God.

The idea that time is only an aspect of the temporal world and does not apply to God goes back to Plato. There are some who would like to make Plato's Timaeus one of the books of the Bible.

Plato “For there were no days and nights and months and years before the heaven was created, but when he constructed the heaven he created them also. They are all parts of time, and the past and future are created species of time, which we unconsciously but wrongly transfer to the eternal essence; for we say that he 'was,' he 'is,' he 'will be,' but the truth is that 'is' alone is properly attributed to him, and that 'was' and 'will be' only to be spoken of becoming in time, for they are motions, but that which is immovably the same, 'is eternal'.​

But you contradict yourself if you use the temporal word "before" knowing that God is not temporal.

God did stop the evil that came into the world from Adam to Noah. If Noah had not been a righteous man then we would not be here having this conversation.

--Dave