What are your reasons for believing in god(s)?

[Damian]

Well, ther isn't really anything there to rebut. You just said that you believe in God because of consciousness and that it was obvious. How does the existence of consciousness entail the existence of god(s)?

Account for consciousness based on a materialistic worldview.

 

[SUTG]

Account for consciousness based on a materialistic worldview.

Why are you changing the subject?

 

[Damian]

Why are you changing the subject?

I'm not changing the subject. You asked why I believe in God and I stated why. There's no accounting for consciousness that does not entail some kind of God-concept.[/QUOTE]

 

[asilentskeptic]

I'm not changing the subject. You asked why I believe in God and I stated why. There's no accounting for consciousness that does not entail some kind of God-concept.

There is most definitely an accounting for consciousness that does not entail some kind of God-concept.

Here is a good page, for starters The Evolution of Consciousness

After that... just for kicks, go to scholar.google.com and type in "consciousness evolution" There is enough information there to keep you busy for a very long time.

 

[Damian]

I'm not changing the subject. You asked why I believe in God and I stated why. There's no accounting for consciousness that does not entail some kind of God-concept.

Let me rephrase:

"There's no accounting for consciousness that does not entail some kind of God-concept or form of dualism."

 

[SUTG]

Let me rephrase:

"There's no accounting for consciousness that does not entail some kind of God-concept or form of dualism."

Ok, then I assume you are going to follow this up by presenting your account of consciousness? :idunno:

 

[asilentskeptic]

Let me rephrase:

"There's no accounting for consciousness that does not entail some kind of God-concept or form of dualism."

The study of consciousness is one that is getting a lot of time. How the mind works, how consciousness developed: these are all things that are being looked at. And not just philisophically. There are concrete studies being done to find out where consciousness comes from, especially in the last 15 years.

You will have to explain what you mean by dualism though, so that I can respond correctly I typed up a beastly reply, and decided I should wait so that I knew exactly what you were stating.

 

[fool]

Account for consciousness based on a materialistic worldview.

The collective dilusion of several million brain cells.
That was easy.

 

[asilentskeptic]

The collective dilusion of several million brain cells.
That was easy.

Francis Crick in The Astonishing Hypothesis "a person's mental activities are entirely due to the behavior of nerve cells, glial cells, and the atoms, ions, and molecules that make them up and influence them"

 

[Damian]

There is most definitely an accounting for consciousness that does not entail some kind of God-concept.

Here is a good page, for starters The Evolution of Consciousness

"The Evolution of Consciousness" is basically an argument for God. This would have been apparent if you read the header - "For more on this theme see book From Science to God."

In From Science to God, Russell evokes Thomas Kuhn's paradigm shift to argue that science is on the threshold of a new superparadigm1. Russell disputes scientific materialism and likens current efforts to explain consciousness in terms of neuropsychology to the convoluted epicycles before the Copernican revolution in astronomy. Russell's views are in sharp contrast to materialists like Daniel Dennett, author of Consciousness Explained. Depending on one's point of view, Russell's perspective might be argued as being either protoscientific or pseudoscientific, but in any case is similar to views held by nonmaterialist thinkers like Plotinus, Fichte, Schelling, Hegel, and Ken Wilber. (source: Wikipedia "Peter Russell")

 

[Damian]

The collective dilusion of several million brain cells.
That was easy.

What is having the delusion?

 

[fool]

What is having the delusion?

Can you read?

 

[Damian]

Ok, then I assume you are going to follow this up by presenting your account of consciousness? :idunno:

Why do I? Consciousness is self-evident.

 

[Damian]

Can you read?

Yes. I can read. I can spell also.

 

[Damian]

The study of consciousness is one that is getting a lot of time. How the mind works, how consciousness developed: these are all things that are being looked at. And not just philisophically. There are concrete studies being done to find out where consciousness comes from, especially in the last 15 years.

In the context of this discussion, dualism refers to mind/matter or mind/body as being ontologically distinct.

In philosophy of mind, dualism is any of a narrow variety of views about the relationship between mind and matter, which claims that mind and matter are two ontologically separate categories. In particular, mind-body dualism claims that neither the mind nor matter can be reduced to each other in any way, and thus is opposed to materialism in general, and reductive materialism in particular. Mind-body dualism can exist as substance dualism which claims that the mind and the body are composed of a distinct substance, and as property dualism which claims that there may not be a distinction in substance, but that mental and physical properties are still categorically distinct, and not reducible to each other. This type of dualism is sometimes referred to as "mind and body" and stands in contrast to philosophical monism, which views mind and matter as being ultimately the same kind of thing. (source: Wikipedia "Dualism")

 

[fool]

Yes. I can read. I can spell also.

Good.
Go back and read.

 

[Damian]

Good.
Go back and read.

The collective dilusion of several million brain cells.
That was easy.

Do the several million brain cells have the delusion? If so, you have not explained anything. How do cells have consciousness?

What exactly is having the delusion? To have a delusion presupposes some form of consciousness to begin with.

 

[SUTG]

Hmmm...I must be missing something here. When I asked why you believed in god, you said "consciousness" and then said it was "self-evident" how the existence of consciousness was your reason for believing in the existence of god. Then you asked me to account for consciousness based on a materialistic worldview, and stated "There's no accounting for consciousness that does not entail some kind of God-concept or form of dualism." Then I asked you how you account for consciousness and you said it "was self-evident".

Is that about it?

 

[fool]

Do the several million brain cells have the delusion? If so, you have not explained anything. How do cells have consciousness?

How do you have consciousness without cells?

What exactly is having the delusion? To have a delusion presupposes some form of consciousness to begin with.

Can you read?

 

[Damian]

How do you have consciousness without cells?

Can you read?

I will presume that you believe that cells have consciousness. How far down does this extend? Molecules...electrons?