ECT We are not Israel, but the Body of Christ

northwye

New member
"Members of the Body of Christ are never referred to as priests, but Israel shall be an holy nation of priests (Matthew 19:28 KJV, 1 Peter 2:9 KJV)."

This is separation theology.

Exodus 19: 5-6 says "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.”

In quoting Exodus 19: 5-6 Peter in I Peter 2: 9 says "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:”

Who are "ye" in I Peter 2: 9? Separation theology of John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Lewis S. Chafer makes a strong distinction between Israel, and the Church. In separation theology Israel must always be Old Covenant Israel and cannot be any other regardless of New Testament texts like Romans 9: 6-8, II Corinthians 3: 6-11, Galatians 4: 24-26 and Galatians 6: 16, where a clear implication is that Old Covenant Israel was not replaced by the Church and does not remain to stand side by side with the Church but was remade as Jeremiah 18: 1-6 says. When Israel was remade, what existed after this remaking was Israel.

"Ye" in I Peter 2: 9 refers to Christians. Peter is quoting Exodus 19: 5-6 is saying that in this remaking of Old Covenant Israel the peculiar treasure, kingdom of priests, and the holy people (nation) of the Old Covenant become the royal priesthood, a holy people (nation),and a peculiar people who are called out of darkness into God's marvelous light. Peter says in I Peter 2: 5 that this same "ye" are "built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood..."

Spiritual house is from οικος πνευματικος oikos pneumatikos clearly spiritual house, implying that he Old Covenant was not a οικος πνευματικος. For the multitude in Old Covenant Israel their house was of the flesh - the physical bloodline from Abraham, the physical animal sacrifice system, physical circumcision and he physical temple building. But there was a spiritual remnant back then, seen, for example in Hebrews 11 and in the words of he prophets. The religion of he pharisees was about the physical things of the Old Covenant. You can see the leaven of the Pharisees - their focus upon that which is physical in opposition to that which is spiritual in the encounter of Christ with the Pharisees in John 8.

"From the time of Christ’s rejection by Israel until the time when God deals specifically with Israel again in the seventieth week it is not possible to refer to a remnant of the nation Israel." Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology, 1965, by J. Dwight Pentecost

Separation theology, which is dispensationalism and Christian Zionism after 1948, focuses on the multitude and tends to ignore or reject the remnant.

You will find remnant in Revelation 12: 17 in the 1526 Tyndale New Testament, in the 1599 Geneva Bible and in the 1611 King James Version. Remnant is not in the NIV. It says the dragon went off to make war with the "rest" of her seed. No remnant in the NIV.

The New King James says "...he went to make war with the "rest" of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." No remnant in the New King James Version.

An interesting issue to explore is why Paul does not mention in Romans 11 the non-Jews who became Christians in the First Century following the beginning of the fulfillment of Hosea 2: 23 - God's calling of a people "which were not my people" - in Acts 10. In Romans 11: 1-5 Paul talks about a remnant from Old Covenant Israel - a remnant according to the election of grace - and implies that God began his New Covenant with this Old Covenant remnant. Maybe Paul wanted to emphasize from Isaiah 10: 20-23 that there was a remnant of Israel, which he talks about in Romans 9: 27-28, and that this remnant of Old Covenant Israel became the first fruits of the remaking of Israel in Christ. Maybe Paul would have agreed that non-Jews after Acts 10 became part of this remnant.

Another thought is that separation theology-dispensatioalism-Chrisitian Zionism relies too much on the difference in translation of the Greek word εθνεσιν, a form of ethnos, in Matthew 24: 14 and in Romans 11: 25.

Matthew 24: 14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

Romans 11: 25: "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

Why translate ethnos as Gentiles in Romans 11: 25 and as nations in Matthew 24: 14?

The 1525 Tyndale Bible for Romans 11: 4 says "I wolde not that this secrete shuld be hyd fro you my brethren (lest ye shuld be wyse in youre awne consaytes) that partly blyndnes is happened in Israel vntyll ye fulnes of the gentyls be come in:"

For Matthew 24: 14 Tyndale has "And this gladtidingees of the kyngdome shalbe preached in all the worlde for a witnes vnto all nacions: and then shall the ende come."

Matthew 24: 14 and Romans 11: 25 are about the same subject, that there is to be an end of the preaching of the Gospel to the ethnos (Gentiles, nations of peoples).

Jerome's Latin Bible for Matthew 24: 14: "et praedicabitur hoc evangelium regni in universo orbe in testimonium omnibus gentibus et tunc veniet consummation." Gerome uses gentibus, or gentiles, for ethnos.

Jerome's Vulgate for Romans 11: 25: " nolo enim vos ignorare fratres mysterium hoc ut non sitis vobis ipsis sapientes quia caecitas ex parte contigit in Israhel donec plenitudo gentium intraret."

Jerome uses Gentiles also for ethnos in Romans 11: 25
 
Last edited:

Interplanner

Well-known member
"Members of the Body of Christ are never referred to as priests, but Israel shall be an holy nation of priests (Matthew 19:28 KJV, 1 Peter 2:9 KJV).

This is separation theology.

Exodus 19: 5-6 says "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.”

In quoting Exodus 19: 5-6 Peter in I Peter 2: 9 says "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:”

Who are "ye" in I Peter 2: 9? Separation theology of John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Lewis S. Chafer makes a strong distinction between Israel, and the Church. In separation theology Israel must always be Old Covenant Israel and cannot be any other regardless of New Testament texts like Romans 9: 6-8, II Corinthians 3: 6-11, Galatians 4: 24-26 and Galatians 6: 16, where a clear implication is that Old Covenant Israel was not replaced by the Church but was remade as Jeremiah 18: 1-6 says. When Israel was remade, what existed after this remaking was Israel.

"Ye" in I Peter 2: 9 refers to Christians. Peter is quoting Exodus 19: 5-6 is saying that in this remaking of Old Covenant Israel the peculiar treasure, kingdom of priests, and the holy people (nation) of the Old Covenant become the royal priesthood, a holy people (nation),and a peculiar people who are called out of darkness into God's marvelous light. Peter says in I Peter 2: 5 that this same "ye" are "built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood..."

Spiritual house is from οικος πνευματικος oikos pneumatikos clearly spiritual house, implying that he Old Covenant was not a οικος πνευματικος. For the multitude in Old Covenant Israel their house was of the flesh - the physical bloodline from Abraham, the physical animal sacrifice system, physical circumcision and he physical temple building. But there was a spiritual remnant back then, seen, for example in Hebrews 11 and in the words of he prophets. The religion of he pharisees was about the physical things of the Old Covenant. You can see the leaven of the Pharisees - their focus upon that which is physical in opposition to that which is spiritual in the encounter of Christ with the Pharisees in John 8.

"From the time of Christ’s rejection by Israel until the time when God deals specifically with Israel again in the seventieth week it is not possible to refer to a remnant of the nation Israel." Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology, 1965, by J. Dwight Pentecost

Separation theology, which is dispensationalism and Christian Zionism after 1948, focuses on the multitude and tends to ignore or reject the remnant.

You will find remnant in Revelation 12: 17 in the 1526 Tyndale New Testament, in the 1599 Geneva Bible and in the 1611 King James Version. Remnant is not in the NIV. It says the dragon went off to make war with the "rest" of her seed. No remnant in the NIV.

The New King James says "...he went to make war with the "rest" of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." No remnant in the New King James Version.

An interesting issue to explore is why Paul does not mention in Romans 11 the non-Jews who became Christians in the First Century following the beginning of the fulfillment of Hosea 2: 23 - God's calling of a people "which were not my people" - in Acts 10. In Romans 11: 1-5 Paul talks about a remnant from Old Covenant Israel - a remnant according to the election of grace - and implies that God began his New Covenant with this Old Covenant remnant. Maybe Paul wanted to emphasize from Isaiah 10: 20-23 that there was a remnant of Israel, which he talks about in Romans 9: 27-28, and that this remnant of Old Covenant Israel became the first fruits of the remaking of Israel in Christ. Maybe Paul would have agreed that non-Jews after Acts 10 became part of this remnant.



Thanks Northwye, for adding separation as another term for describing 2P2P and as a way of stating that the original RT problem is in Gal 3:17, and is the only one we need deal with.

Please, please, review FOOTHOLD at Amazon. I'll get you an e.copy if you write me at www.interplans.net.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Don't go around causing brain hemorrhages.

Yes sir, brother!

The Galatians, for example, could expect a blessing during Acts. It came in the form of the gospel of Christ, and they were heirs.

Some of the Ephesians, for example, could not expect a blessing during Acts. Their blessing came in the form of the gospel of the grace of God, and made them fellowheirs (with the Galatians for example).
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
What you say about these kinds and those kinds of Gentiles is nonsense talk.
Address the scriptures cited.

I can hardly believe you said, "Gentiles to whom Paul was first sent/those found in the synagogue of the Jews."
Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

Acts 17:4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
Yes sir, brother!

The Galatians, for example, could expect a blessing during Acts. It came in the form of the gospel of Christ, and they were heirs.

Some of the Ephesians, for example, could not expect a blessing during Acts. Their blessing came in the form of the gospel of the grace of God, and made them fellowheirs (with the Galatians for example).
See?! Ephesians 3:9 KJV!
 

God's Truth

New member
Address the scriptures cited.
I did deal with the scriptures you cited.

Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

Acts 17:4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

What makes you think they are Gentiles?

The Jews who are not really Jews but of the synagogue of Satan---they are the Jews who REJECT JESUS
 

God's Truth

New member
I can hardly believe that there are people who believe Jesus gave a better gospel and good news to Gentiles who never obeyed, but not to the Jews.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Yes sir, brother!

The Galatians, for example, could expect a blessing during Acts. It came in the form of the gospel of Christ, and they were heirs.

Some of the Ephesians, for example, could not expect a blessing during Acts. Their blessing came in the form of the gospel of the grace of God, and made them fellowheirs (with the Galatians for example).



You know this is total chronological nonsense don't you? "Ephesians" was during Acts.

Why some of the ephesians? it is clear that ephesians is to all of them.

Both of your paragraphs are about the Gospel, but you think you've found some distinction between them, I guess to preserve 2P2P--the doctrine that keeps 'restored' Israel and believers separate by thinking Israel is always the ethne Israel.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
You know this is total chronological nonsense don't you? "Ephesians" was during Acts.

Why some of the ephesians? it is clear that ephesians is to all of them.

Both of your paragraphs are about the Gospel, but you think you've found some distinction between them, I guess to preserve 2P2P--the doctrine that keeps 'restored' Israel and believers separate by thinking Israel is always the ethne Israel.

I'll bet the farm you did not understand the point I was making, one iota.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Paul found some Ephesians in a synagogue during Acts. He knew them well. They were heirs.
"We who first trusted".

Paul later wrote to some Ephesians that he had never met. They became fellowheirs.
"Ye who also trusted".

Then, Paul talked about the inheritance that they both enjoyed in the Body. "Unto Us".
 

Danoh

New member
Paul found some Ephesians in a synagogue during Acts. He knew them well. They were heirs.
"We who first trusted".

Paul later wrote to some Ephesians that he had never met. They became fellowheirs.
"Ye who also trusted".

Then, Paul talked about the inheritance that they both enjoyed in the Body. "Unto Us".

Lol - that right there is what ya might call a bad case of oversimplification.

Who came up with this odd view of your'n - Floyd Lawson* :chuckle:

________

*Floyd Lawson; fictional barber on the much loved old tv sitcom The Andy Griffith Show
 

Danoh

New member
You know this is total chronological nonsense don't you? "Ephesians" was during Acts.

Why some of the ephesians? it is clear that ephesians is to all of them.

Both of your paragraphs are about the Gospel, but you think you've found some distinction between them, I guess to preserve 2P2P--the doctrine that keeps 'restored' Israel and believers separate by thinking Israel is always the ethne Israel.

Think that's got ya riled up - you'll love this - STP has said that theirs is a 3P3P :crackup:
 

Danoh

New member
We who first trusted
Ye who also trusted

Like I said - oversimplification.

The very origin of ALL off-based conclusions.

Ignore it; but that is what that is - oversimplification

The best towards you, nonetheless, my fellow Mid-Actser...
 
Top